Homophobia in Haixing

[extrapenguin]

If I were to write a Guardian fic the point of which was something completely unrelated to homophobia, but which ended with Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan getting a happily ever after, what level of societal homophobia would not throw you out of the story? Would you find it jarring if they dared hold hands in public? If they dared kiss? If they introduced each other as romantic partners in casual-ish conversation without too much euphemism? Their nearest and dearest would know, and marriage wouldn't be on the table anyway, but ... what is the range of attitudes that wouldn't have the readership's suspension of disbelief come crashing down?

On the one hand, I want this to be happily-ever-after dancing on roses without a cloud in sight; on the other, a lot of the relationship developments of canon make more sense if Haixing is at least somewhat homophobic. So: advice?

Comments

[melannen]

Honestly I would be fine with any level of homophobia, because as people above are saying, the main evidence in the show is evidence of absence, and there's also a fair amount of fairly non-subtle signalling that it would be a lot less absent if not for censorship.

I think I also read Guardian through a lot of the strategies I learned on heavily queercoded American shows twenty or thirty years old (i.e.: Xena Warrior Princess, ST:DS9) where you learn to read absence of outright queerness in canon as, sort of, "this is what's allowed on camera, which is not what the characters are doing off-camera" and it's really, really up to reader's interpretation how much they want to actively reverse the censorship in their worldbuilding. Like it makes absolutely no sense to read Starfleet as homophobic at all, but the network censorship means it's just plain invisible on the screen, so you have to kind of mentally remove the censorship filter to make it work; I can do that with Haixing pretty easily too if I want to read it that way.

That said, I think I've been sort of reading the situation in Haixing as one where homosexuality isn't spoken of, but it's also not actively homophobic? Like, a situation where you wouldn't tell your boss you were gay, because that would be crass and also risky, but you also wouldn't hesitate to introduce your boyfriend to your parents or go to a gay club in your off hours, because there's a deep private/public split (with a good dose of survivalist doublethink) in how it's treated in those two spheres. Which is probably not that far off what it's like in places (like much of China, see: Guardian being a massive hit) that have a history of being culturally less homophobic but are having it imposed from above. That's probably just me reading the censorship into the text though.

But right now in English-speaking spaces we have this concept that you've all actually articulated pretty well in the comment threads above, that if a society doesn't treat same-sex relationships as exactly equivalent to different-sex ones, then it's homophobic. But there's a lot of cultural leeway for a belief that same-sex romances are valid and accepted but are not considered the same kind of relationships as opposite-sex romances. So you might say "Those two men are blood brothers who french kiss in public, are in love with each other, and have sworn eternal devotion, and I admire and support them" but to call them a couple would be weird and kind of daring because the society doesn't use that word for same-sex couples, they have other words. The same way nobody today would call a man who was married to a man his wife, even though that doesn't mean we're devaluing wives (...probably,) it's just that a man isn't a wife.

IDK: Right now, for very good reasons, there's a strong push to make sure gay couples do get socially and legally treated as exactly the same social category as het couples, and not being treated that way can be deeply painful for some non-het people, but I don't think it's a necessary prerequisite for a non-homophobic society that had a different social history. (And there are still queer activists who don't want it either, who want queer relationships to be definable on their own terms.)

Which is kind of veering off topic, but anyway, if I personally wanted to write a hearts-and-flowers no-homophobia type of ending that still felt true to canon Haixing, that's what I would probably go for: try to write in a world where the canon asymmetry is celebration of difference rather than an imbalance, and everybody who hears Zhao Yunlan introduce his "dear friend" knows exactly what "dear friend" means and thinks it's adorable. (Because I think the canon *does* support a reading where a same-sex relationship is as socially valued as a het romance, just without calling it that. Not the only valid reading, but one that is.)

Anyway I've been slowly reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms for my Ancient China Slash background* and basically the Peach Orchard Oath dudes are totally in love and everybody is okay with that but nobody would ever compare it to an m/f romance.

And to finish this way-too-long comment: I also agree that I think given any canon-compliant reading of Haixing homophobia, all of Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei's circles at least are going to object far more strongly to the Haixing/Dixing part than the same-sex part.

*yes I am so deep in Not Finishing The Show that I decided to read the Great Classical Novels instead, shhhh

[extrapenguin]

Thank you for the long and thought-out response! It is full of interesting things, but the main suggestion of leaning into different-but-celebrated ("separate-but-equal") is unworkable due to personal squick.

Anyway I've been slowly reading Romance of the Three Kingdoms for my Ancient China Slash background
You know, I actually related, though my excuse into diving deep into Chinese poetry is that the protagonists of my other current fandom, Modao Zushi, would 100% definitely quote it. :P

[melannen]

I totally get that!

Honestly that whole section could be summarized into "a church wedding where Da Qing is the flower girl and Zhao Yunlan wears white would feel way, way off for Haixing culture in so many ways, but really anything short of that would probably be fine with me."