Endings

[extrapenguin]

(But! The Guardian rewatchalong has yet to end. Episode 35, with time travel talk!)

Observation of the day: Other people seem to have a much higher tolerance for fairytale endings than I do; I find a lot of the more wish-fulfillment-y ones unrealistic and prefer stuff like "no matter what the rules are, you can live happily within them" to "if the author likes you, the rules will go out the window for your HEA". Perhaps primarily because the former is a thing that can happen while the latter is not applicable to reality.

(By "the rules go out the window", I mean stuff like e.g. a slash ship in a royalty arranged marriage AU in a world where there is no mpreg, no sexual nonexclusivity to create an heir with a concubine, and no stuff to handwave away the lack of biokid heirs, whether that be worldbuilding so that the monarchy is nonhereditary or simply a mention of there being a convenient nephew for them to adopt. There are lots and lots of other ways to go full fairytale in a fashion that I find unbelievable, but this scenario is perhaps the easiest to explain.)

Comments

[tinny]

well put. arranged gay marriage fic has to be really really good for me to want to believe it. it requires such a lot of handwaving.

[extrapenguin]

It's never even set up like "here are two third sons who have a bunch of nephews; let's cement our military alliance by wedding them, which coincidentially would also stop them from acquiring any legitimate offspring of their own who'd threaten their older brothers' children's successions" or anything! (Arranged marriage in fic also seems to try to have its cake and eat it too wrt marriage as a job contract for dynastic purposes vs marriage for love. With arranged gay marriage fic the cracks can show quite spectacularly.)

[china_shop]

Things like that work okay for me if it's the kind of fic that has broken away from reality and exists in a shiny bubble of wish-fulfilment. (See also most porn star AUs.) The more realistic it tries to seem, the more difficult is it to ignore the world-building problems, imo.

[krait]

You are not alone. This is a big reason why I tend to be dissatisfied with AUS, because it seems like it's often more blatant in AU fics (and especially the further the AU concept gets from the canon's core concept).

I admit to having a couple of arranged-marriage slashfic WIPs tucked away on my hard drive, but there's always a background explanation built in! One is a concubinage situation rather than a marriage (royal gets a male concubine; he later marries and produces an heir, though he's in love with the concubine). Another features a m/m couple who already have an heir, whether from a previous marriage or by officially acknowledging an heir from a lateral line. A third involves a fourth son being married off to an ennobled victorious general, which is a deliberate attempt (on the part of the general's boss) to prevent him establishing a bloodline and amassing political power.

The 'rules out the window because I say so' approach just doesn't work for me as a reader or as an author! I have to know why the characters believe it can work. :D

[extrapenguin]

The more realistic it tries to seem, the more difficult is it to ignore the world-building problems, imo.
Yeah, this. Actually, with AUs, my biggest problem is often the lack of/inconsistent worldbuilding; as a result, I rarely click on them. (I'm also a worldbuilding fan who falls in love with the world of the original canon, not just the characters, which gives its own layer.)

[extrapenguin]

This is a big reason why I tend to be dissatisfied with AUS, because it seems like it's often more blatant in AU fics (and especially the further the AU concept gets from the canon's core concept).
Combining it with some other thoughts I've had, I think it's because it's a failure of worldbuilding, and people who're interested in doing the worldbuilding are more likely to not go setting change AU? (At least, i've heard several people say that they find canon worldbuilding intimidating and thus write a modern AU of some stripe.)

I admit to having a couple of arranged-marriage slashfic WIPs tucked away on my hard drive, but there's always a background explanation built in!
If there's an explanation, no matter how brief, then it's fine! As i said, I just need the briefest of handwaves. And the one with the general sounds intriguing.

I have to know why the characters believe it can work. :D
This, so much.

[ranalore]

I find a lot of the more wish-fulfillment-y ones unrealistic and prefer stuff like "no matter what the rules are, you can live happily within them"

Whereas I find that a horrifying echo of the mainstream's harmful fantasy message that the marginalized could be happy if we would just conform to societal and cultural norms, and we don't do so out of willful maliciousness, rather than because those norms inherently exclude us. I prefer the message that the rules are adaptable, that accommodations can be made, while I fight for a reality where that's the case.

[extrapenguin]

I think you interpreted it more narrowly than I intended? Characters fighting to change society's rules and succeeding is fine, characters subverting society's rules is fine, characters searching for accommodations and finding them is fine. My problem is with stuff where the rules of the universe are thrown out for the sake of the HEA - e.g. if men get orange horses and women get green ones, and all unions must have two horses of different color, but then suddenly after a lot of angst everyone just goes "eh, stay together despite not meeting the religious requirements" or whatever. (Example was crappy but hopefully illustrative?) Deus ex machina happy ending vs earned happy ending, basically. Or rules being adaptable vs rules not applying to you for no explained reason.

[ranalore]

I think you interpreted it more narrowly than I intended?

I believe your own examples are demonstrating that I have interpreted it correctly. There are assumptions at the bottom of both your initial "arranged marriage" example and this example that are rooted in that mainstream message, as is the idea that characters must explicitly address or challenge certain plot points, or do something extraordinary, in order not to be subjected to this imposition of a false universalism. If that's your reality, I'm glad I don't live there.

[krait]

Honestly, I think a lot of people who do the big AUs (like, big changes from canon) do so because the AU itself is a bit of a kink? An id thing? I don't quite know what to call it, but basically, I think the AU is the end goal rather than the set dressing. So worldbuilding isn't so much at the forefront of their minds when making the changes; Bob is a barista because it's not a coffee-shop AU if he's not, and the point is to make a coffee-shop AU rather than to realistically translate Bob's canonical career path/ambitions into a modern setting.

That doesn't work for me, since I don't share the love of the AU-for-its-own-sake.

I'm not sure that I have a bulletproof kink amongst AUs, honestly; even with the ones I love and want to write or read multiple iterations of, I still need the canonical version of the characters to be the focus. (It's probably really telling that most of the big-changes AU fics I've enjoyed are for canons I'm not familiar with!)

And yes to the handwaving being a perfectly valid way to handle it, too! If people are intimidated by worldbuilding, I wish there was a way to reassure them that sometimes less is more. A one-off discussion between your arranged spouses that mentions, "after the engagement I'll officially designate my eldest cousin as my heir, which removes the last impediment to the union" doesn't need a twelve-chapter explanation of how the lines of descent or legal requirements for royal marriage work in this universe; the reader can extrapolate enough to go on with.

[extrapenguin]

I mean, this is a question of worldbuilding - if the rules of the fictional universe, whatever they may be, are thrown out with no explanation or foreshadowing for a HEA, then my disbelief is unsuspended. It also makes me feel sad, like the author believes it's impossible for people like me to have happy endings without "divine intervention" in the form of an author bending the universe. I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me.

[extrapenguin]

I think a lot of people who do the big AUs (like, big changes from canon) do so because the AU itself is a bit of a kink? An id thing? I don't quite know what to call it, but basically, I think the AU is the end goal rather than the set dressing
Ah, yeah, a narrative kink! I admit I don't share the kink for setting change AUs, either. (A bunch of the modern AU ones I've read are also deeply OOC because of the thing you mention: character X would never be content as a Starbucks barista without at the very least some ambitions of getting out of there, etc.)

It's probably really telling that most of the big-changes AU fics I've enjoyed are for canons I'm not familiar with!
Probably! The more one knows, the more one can notice the discrepancies and missed opportunities.

A one-off discussion between your arranged spouses that mentions, "after the engagement I'll officially designate my eldest cousin as my heir, which removes the last impediment to the union" doesn't need a twelve-chapter explanation of how the lines of descent or legal requirements for royal marriage work in this universe; the reader can extrapolate enough to go on with.
Plus eleventy billion. Worldbuilding is wonderful, but it's also reasonably easy to do the minimal handwaving that results in an impression that the characters have thought it through.

[ranalore]

I can honestly say I've never read such an ending, perhaps because stories with this problem usually have other problems that crop up earlier, which cause me to stop reading before I get to the end. I have read, for example, same-sex arranged marriage royalty AUs in which the question of an heir is not specifically addressed, because the story's not about dynastic succession, or the question is implicitly answered by background details such as noble fostering and adoption, the existence of concubines and/or siblings and extended family, the couple in question working to overhaul the government, magic or science that would allow for, in essence, petrie dish babies, and so on. For me, these options would need to be explicitly excluded to end up at the scenario you're talking about. That's what I mean by the base assumptions of the false mainstream message, which always tries to narrow the world more than it is.

[extrapenguin]

the question is implicitly answered by background details such as noble fostering and adoption, the existence of concubines and/or siblings and extended family, the couple in question working to overhaul the government, magic or science that would allow for, in essence, petrie dish babies, and so on
Yes? My "exceptions" section covers those. I was talking about things where such things aren't addressed.

I also don't read stuff that does the Thing, and in general don't read mundane/modern AUs. This post wasn't actually about any of them, but rather inspired by my thoughts on my WIP and its ending and meditating on what sort of ending I'd consider fitting.

[ranalore]

My "exceptions" section covers those. I was talking about things where such things aren't addressed.

Your exceptions cover these things being specifically addressed. I'm talking about these things not being excluded. I don't need my getting-together arranged-marriage AU to also be a getting-an-heir story (in fact, I skip getting an heir stories, because kidfic is not my thing and pregnancy storylines of any kind tend to run into my triggers hard). As long as I'm not specifically, explicitly told "there is no way possible for this couple to ever name an heir," I'm both an experienced and imaginative enough reader to fill in possible scenarios for myself, if I need to think about the question at all. That's not "auctorial intervention to waive the rules," that's "the author is focusing on other things in this story," which is a perfectly legitimate and realistic narrative option.

I'm sure there are any number of things in the universe of your WIP that you are not focusing on, because any narrative, of necessity, leaves things out. Do you really feel you must specifically address them in order for the ending of your story to be realistic? Can't you simply leave the possibilities open, and trust your readers to fill them in?

[extrapenguin]

Let's see if an itemized list would be clearer?

1. If the worldbuilding sets up something (e.g. medieval era same-sex arranged marriage for the sole heir of the kingdom, a woman knight in which deviation from stereotypical US gender roles gets the death sentence) then any implied issues or contradictions must be dealt with at least at the brief handwave level.

2. Stuff where the worldbuilding covers whatever the issues or contradictions might be (e.g. it's fantasy and any two people can generate babies with a ritual, the society isn't sexist) doesn't need to handwave them. It can, and it can bring texture to the narrative or a subplot perhaps, but it's not necessary.

3. Stuff that would be in category 1 but don't do the necessary handwaving often feel flat and unrealistic to me, especially when the aim was realism/naturalism.

I hope that clarified matters!

[ranalore]

I assure you, matters were clear before. However, what is also clear at this point is that this is an unproductive discussion, and so I will disengage. Good luck with your WIP!

[krait]

Yep, I really think it's a case of narrative kink at play in about half of the cases, if not more. And yep, "badly translated" characters - where their canonical personality doesn't mesh with their AU placement - throw me out of a story really quickly. Some characters just really, really don't fit into some settings, not without such extreme changes that you're basically designing an OC. (I ran into this a lot in Yuuri on Ice fandom, where AUs were rife and often based on 'whatever cute idea is circulating on Tumblr today' rather than any ability to parallel the canon characters' personalities and dynamics.)

Plus eleventy billion. Worldbuilding is wonderful, but it's also reasonably easy to do the minimal handwaving that results in an impression that the characters have thought it through.

Yes. I'd add that what's most important is that the author has thought it through - no matter how much or how little explanation makes it into the fic, the author should have worked out the basic problems and how they were solved. If the author is working from a plan, the fic will have internal logic that holds up through the fic, even if the solutions happened offscreen. If not, they're probably going to trip up somewhere and give out conflicting information or leave gaps in the plot.

[extrapenguin]

Some characters just really, really don't fit into some settings, not without such extreme changes that you're basically designing an OC.
+1 I ran into it a lot in MDZS fandom – though to be fair, a lot of the allegedly canon setting fic also had very ... interesting characterization choices.

I'd add that what's most important is that the author has thought it through - no matter how much or how little explanation makes it into the fic, the author should have worked out the basic problems and how they were solved.
Oh, yes, this, definitely! Forays of fandoms past have revealed that there are people who don't even think about thinking it through; after getting started in Vorkosigan fandom, it was quite a shock. :P (Hm, this is probably also part of what underpins my dislike of Trope Product fic, where there's a trope that comes with a plot already and then that plot is hewed to to the beat, scarcely more than a search-and-replace needed *g* The lack of thinking leaves the plot with gaps or conflicts in the information.)