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extrapenguinI've done all of today's IRL todo list, time to talk about Ye Zun! Spoilers through the whole TV series. I shall not touch the novel, since Ye Zun doesn't exist there.
We see him in canon, and know how he is as a villain, but I'd actually argue that all of that is a mask. We see him put on what I see as a very intentional performance of bravado and confidence. However, that's not his "true" personality, that's the metaphorical mask he wears to go with his literal one.
Much has been made about Shen Wei's mask(s), and as Shen Wei's color palette swapped identical twin and narrative foil, Ye Zun also wears a mask. We don't hear him say why he wears the mask, but given that no-one else wears one fulltime, it's no widespread Dixingian custom. At one point he mentions hating his face, because it looks so much like his brother's, but when it comes to invading Haixing, he could just as well do it without a mask and ruin Shen Wei's reputation as an aside, and yet he doesn't. I suspect his reasons for keeping on the mask are similar to what drove Shen Wei to donning his: he wants to hide his youth, inexperience, fear, and appear to be the supervillain he wants to be.
But all of that is performance. We see the metaphorical mask crack when the literal one does: the final episodes have Ye Zun descend into ranting. No-one ever asked him why he was doing what he was doing. While Zhao Yunlan reached out to young Shen Wei as Kunlun, no-one did that to Ye Zun. Combined with Ye Zun's jealous outburst in the time travel episode ("I've always put you first in my heart, gege, but in your heart, others have always come before me.") and his final conversations with Zhao Yunlan when everything is disintegrating, I find it hard to believe he's anything but how we saw him in the Ye Zun shot that comes first in the timeline: someone who's been hurt and broken and trod over by circumstances, and who's learned that people are out to get him. The manipulation is a powerless child's attempt at exerting control over his environment. We see Ye Zun as a victim of the original rebel leader; from that moment, he had perhaps a month or so* of ruling the rebels before he was stuffed into his pillar.
When gaining control of the rebels, Ye Zun learned that might makes right. Another thing he must've learned, based on his interactions with his subordinates in the present, is that people are terrible, and one must hurt them–betray them–abandon them before they hurt–betray–abandon you, because they will do it. Compare this to Shen Wei, who is mistrustful of Haixingians, and thinks e.g. the SID will hurt him, based on his valid fears and Zhao Xinci's attitude, but gets proven wrong when he lets Zhao Yunlan and the SID closer to him despite this fear, and finds that they accept him just fine. Shen Wei could do this because he set himself up to nobly suffer and be the bigger person (and because he was very thirsty for Kunlun content). Ye Zun couldn't do this, because he did not have the security and "internal power base" that would give the necessary margin for error.
In conclusion, Ye Zun as we know him is paranoid, and cruel, and above all utterly terrified of letting people close enough they could hurt him, but he still craves attachment with people, because if human is a social animal, so is a Dixingian. All the bombast is a performance where he tries to convince himself that he deserves to take up this space around him when his confidence has been abused out of him. My problem is this: what do I do with him after that moment of crisis where he discovers that his assumptions about his brother were incorrect, and our heroes can begin to unravel the lies the original rebel leader told him? Who does Ye Zun become, if given a chance to heal? The same scared child, reminiscent of Guo Changcheng, but allowed to fear and cry and be comforted? A prickly brat who pushes at every boundary to try and invoke the punishment he's familar with, because this security and love is too much, too weird for him? A slightly more apologetic and remorseful Shen Wei? I suppose it'd depend on the nature of redemption, and where it diverged from canon, but I'm lost at sea, searching for land. Thoughts are welcome.
* We see Zhao Yunlan instruct Ma Gui on wine-making, and then be present to see the results of said wine-making. (Episodes relating to the Yashou tribe leadership twig.) Fermenting baijiu takes a month or two, depending on how one does it, so we can reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
We see him in canon, and know how he is as a villain, but I'd actually argue that all of that is a mask. We see him put on what I see as a very intentional performance of bravado and confidence. However, that's not his "true" personality, that's the metaphorical mask he wears to go with his literal one.
Much has been made about Shen Wei's mask(s), and as Shen Wei's color palette swapped identical twin and narrative foil, Ye Zun also wears a mask. We don't hear him say why he wears the mask, but given that no-one else wears one fulltime, it's no widespread Dixingian custom. At one point he mentions hating his face, because it looks so much like his brother's, but when it comes to invading Haixing, he could just as well do it without a mask and ruin Shen Wei's reputation as an aside, and yet he doesn't. I suspect his reasons for keeping on the mask are similar to what drove Shen Wei to donning his: he wants to hide his youth, inexperience, fear, and appear to be the supervillain he wants to be.
But all of that is performance. We see the metaphorical mask crack when the literal one does: the final episodes have Ye Zun descend into ranting. No-one ever asked him why he was doing what he was doing. While Zhao Yunlan reached out to young Shen Wei as Kunlun, no-one did that to Ye Zun. Combined with Ye Zun's jealous outburst in the time travel episode ("I've always put you first in my heart, gege, but in your heart, others have always come before me.") and his final conversations with Zhao Yunlan when everything is disintegrating, I find it hard to believe he's anything but how we saw him in the Ye Zun shot that comes first in the timeline: someone who's been hurt and broken and trod over by circumstances, and who's learned that people are out to get him. The manipulation is a powerless child's attempt at exerting control over his environment. We see Ye Zun as a victim of the original rebel leader; from that moment, he had perhaps a month or so* of ruling the rebels before he was stuffed into his pillar.
When gaining control of the rebels, Ye Zun learned that might makes right. Another thing he must've learned, based on his interactions with his subordinates in the present, is that people are terrible, and one must hurt them–betray them–abandon them before they hurt–betray–abandon you, because they will do it. Compare this to Shen Wei, who is mistrustful of Haixingians, and thinks e.g. the SID will hurt him, based on his valid fears and Zhao Xinci's attitude, but gets proven wrong when he lets Zhao Yunlan and the SID closer to him despite this fear, and finds that they accept him just fine. Shen Wei could do this because he set himself up to nobly suffer and be the bigger person (and because he was very thirsty for Kunlun content). Ye Zun couldn't do this, because he did not have the security and "internal power base" that would give the necessary margin for error.
In conclusion, Ye Zun as we know him is paranoid, and cruel, and above all utterly terrified of letting people close enough they could hurt him, but he still craves attachment with people, because if human is a social animal, so is a Dixingian. All the bombast is a performance where he tries to convince himself that he deserves to take up this space around him when his confidence has been abused out of him. My problem is this: what do I do with him after that moment of crisis where he discovers that his assumptions about his brother were incorrect, and our heroes can begin to unravel the lies the original rebel leader told him? Who does Ye Zun become, if given a chance to heal? The same scared child, reminiscent of Guo Changcheng, but allowed to fear and cry and be comforted? A prickly brat who pushes at every boundary to try and invoke the punishment he's familar with, because this security and love is too much, too weird for him? A slightly more apologetic and remorseful Shen Wei? I suppose it'd depend on the nature of redemption, and where it diverged from canon, but I'm lost at sea, searching for land. Thoughts are welcome.
* We see Zhao Yunlan instruct Ma Gui on wine-making, and then be present to see the results of said wine-making. (Episodes relating to the Yashou tribe leadership twig.) Fermenting baijiu takes a month or two, depending on how one does it, so we can reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 18:01 (UTC)He may start out with the mask because his face is his brother's, but when it turns out his brother is ALSO wearing a mask, that motive doesn't really hold any more. He's absolutely putting on a performance. What I can never quite decide is just how self-aware Ye Zun is about it.
(With Shen Wei, he's doing it all very deliberately and consciously; with Ye Zun, I'm just not sure.)
I find it hard to believe he's anything but how we saw him in the Ye Zun shot that comes first in the timeline: someone who's been hurt and broken and trod over by circumstances, and who's learned that people are out to get him
Yes, that's how I see him too.
Who does Ye Zun become, if given a chance to heal? The same scared child, reminiscent of Guo Changcheng, but allowed to fear and cry and be comforted? A prickly brat who pushes at every boundary to try and invoke the punishment he's familar with, because this security and love is too much, too weird for him? A slightly more apologetic and remorseful Shen Wei?
That's a really difficult question, yeah. I only ever got as far as deciding he'd probably veer wildly between different modes at least for the first little while, from clingy to standoffish and all of the things you mention. I don't think he'd end up very much like Shen Wei, though he'd be more expressive, less ... is "contained" the word I'm looking for here? I'm not sure.
* We see Zhao Yunlan instruct Ma Gui on wine-making, and then be present to see the results of said wine-making. (Episodes relating to the Yashou tribe leadership twig.) Fermenting baijiu takes a month or two, depending on how one does it, so we can reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
Ooooh, that's interesting! I really need to rewatch this part again ...
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 18:35 (UTC)Huh, yeah, that's another thing I'm unsure of! I think I'd go for a more unaware Ye Zun, since he seems slightly unhinged in general, though I suppose some of his decisions would be conscious. He's fascinating in that way, and in many ways comes across as a drowning man clinging to any scraps that may keep him afloat.
Not exactly like Shen Wei, no, but something sort of in the same vicinity as the Professor Shen persona might be doable? IDK. I do think he'd wear a less-thick mask than Shen Wei does, though, after breaking through one mask already. "Less contained" would certainly fit, but perhaps you mean "less intentional"? Shen Wei is very much contained, and has intentionally built up his persona; Ye Zun would have a less consciously constructed persona and be less contained.
A large chunk of people think Zhao Yunlan only stayed in the past for two days, based on how the eps 33-34 are cut, but he really must've stayed there longer, both for relationship plot reasons (unless he was like, the best lay ever, there's no way Shen Wei would be that invested in him after merely one night – or rather, the Shen Wei options that leave him that invested after one night of chatting are very depressing) and for the Yashou Twig Key Thingy reasons! Lots of people forget the latter, though, since it comes up in a later episode.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:14 (UTC)*gasp* But what about Love At First Sight?!?! Heh.
Idk, I feel like their love story is enough of a heightened-emotion fairy tale that I can buy the idea of young!Shen Wei deciding he'd finally met his soulmate as one of the possible interpretations of events. (And also of ZYL going, "OMG this Shen Wei is a baby, I just can't!" and contenting himself with flirting madly. Hee!) Equally, a few weeks or a month of seduction and sexing works, but then oh man, meeting ZYL for the first time and not being recognised or acknowledged must have been so painful!
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:36 (UTC)See, I do believe in Lust At First Sight, but the type of love that makes someone stay single and search for the other party for over a decade? Nah, that requires an actual fucking relationship, and the shorter the relationship is, the more tragic and dysfunctional things it implies about the waiting partner. I'd go as far as saying that pining is a (minor) squick of mine! *g* (Likely a manifestation of my soulmates squick.)
With Shen Wei, I'm willing to believe that he waited over a decade because of a month-long relationship, since Zhao Yunlan was the first person ever to express interest in Shen Wei the person, rather than just "Black-Cloaked Envoy, have we won the war yet?" plus variants, and that sort of sexual awakening plus just accidentally ... uhh, dare I say grooming? unwittingly manipulating? an isolated youth would leave an impact. What rescues it from the squick pile is how good Zhao Yunlan is to Shen Wei, every step of the way, plus how Shen Wei did things that weren't just pining for Kunlun and "preserving himself in amber" so Kunlun wouldn't object to anything he might change – he got a PhD in genetics and is now tutoring his academic heirs, in addition to the Black-Cloaked Envoy job. He changed, he let himself change in ways unrelated to Kunlun's encouragements, and Zhao Yunlan loved him the whole way through.
Baby Shen Wei might be a baby compared to the Professor we know and love, but he's still old enough to be a general, so likely old enough to sex up. I imagine Zhao Yunlan would expend some effort in making sure that Shen Wei's first time was appropriately mind-blowing, and made sure to use all the information he'd gained from bedding present Shen Wei to his advantage. ;)
Ahh yes it must've! It's also an underused source of angst for fic. He probably figured out roughly what was going on soonish, but those first few moments? Agony.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:53 (UTC)See, that's what Shen Wei says, but I think my headcanon is more along the lines of actually half the army is in love with the Envoy, to some degree, but he doesn't notice or acknowledge it because he's greysexual and doesn't return their interest. Kunlun is the first/only person he's really attracted to.
So I don't really think of it as pining (or even searching that much) so much as waiting. He still makes friends with other people, exchanges correspondence with old classmates, etc. but I don't feel like he's denying himself while he waits. Just in the back of his mind, he's always holding the promise that they'll meet again.
I mean, like I say, I'm willing to hold multiple versions of events in my mind, but this is one of them.
plus how Shen Wei did things that weren't just pining for Kunlun and "preserving himself in amber" so Kunlun wouldn't object to anything he might change
Yes, that's really important.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 21:50 (UTC)Huh, half the army admiring the Envoy is certainly something I can buy, but not sort of ... being in love and showing it. Silently wisting, sure, but not anything Shen Wei is aware of, because none of them have behaved "inappropriately" and asked about who he is behind the mask. Somewhere,
I'm willing to characterize it as waiting/extremely lowkey pining! I just ... don't see Shen Wei as grey ace or kunlunsexual, since DNW single-target sexualities, and he did fall in love with one dude pretty hard on limited contact. IDK. I guess it comes from my soulmate squick? Though Shen Wei being picky and a bit hard to approach would work just as well. Hm. I'm trying to figure out the preferred configuration of the concept space.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-27 12:53 (UTC)He still makes friends with other people, exchanges correspondence with old classmates, etc. but I don't feel like he's denying himself while he waits. Just in the back of his mind, he's always holding the promise that they'll meet again.
Yes, this. I mean, arguably there's plenty of denial once they meet again, with all the related angst, but for me there's no sense of him putting anything on hold or the like.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-27 22:37 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-28 20:30 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:27 (UTC)Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. Also as the contrasting mirror image to Shen Wei.
"Less contained" would certainly fit, but perhaps you mean "less intentional"? Shen Wei is very much contained, and has intentionally built up his persona; Ye Zun would have a less consciously constructed persona and be less contained.
Less deliberate, maybe? But yes, all of that.
A large chunk of people think Zhao Yunlan only stayed in the past for two days
And it's certainly cut to make it look that way! Though it never did make much sense with the relationships. I don't get why they cut the episode that way, honestly. But I'm happy to take my canon from the key thingy instead.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 21:06 (UTC)Same! And it'd have taken such a small amount of editing – just have a slow fade from the clifftop into a silent shot with gesticulating over a map and then a slow fade into the Ye Zun action sequence, to make space in the narrative for time to pass! Sigh. Ah well, at least we have the key thingy to offer a saner take. (And I wonder: did the script originally look like this, or was there something they had to cut due to budget issues?)
no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 21:48 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 21:52 (UTC)