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extrapenguinI've done all of today's IRL todo list, time to talk about Ye Zun! Spoilers through the whole TV series. I shall not touch the novel, since Ye Zun doesn't exist there.
We see him in canon, and know how he is as a villain, but I'd actually argue that all of that is a mask. We see him put on what I see as a very intentional performance of bravado and confidence. However, that's not his "true" personality, that's the metaphorical mask he wears to go with his literal one.
Much has been made about Shen Wei's mask(s), and as Shen Wei's color palette swapped identical twin and narrative foil, Ye Zun also wears a mask. We don't hear him say why he wears the mask, but given that no-one else wears one fulltime, it's no widespread Dixingian custom. At one point he mentions hating his face, because it looks so much like his brother's, but when it comes to invading Haixing, he could just as well do it without a mask and ruin Shen Wei's reputation as an aside, and yet he doesn't. I suspect his reasons for keeping on the mask are similar to what drove Shen Wei to donning his: he wants to hide his youth, inexperience, fear, and appear to be the supervillain he wants to be.
But all of that is performance. We see the metaphorical mask crack when the literal one does: the final episodes have Ye Zun descend into ranting. No-one ever asked him why he was doing what he was doing. While Zhao Yunlan reached out to young Shen Wei as Kunlun, no-one did that to Ye Zun. Combined with Ye Zun's jealous outburst in the time travel episode ("I've always put you first in my heart, gege, but in your heart, others have always come before me.") and his final conversations with Zhao Yunlan when everything is disintegrating, I find it hard to believe he's anything but how we saw him in the Ye Zun shot that comes first in the timeline: someone who's been hurt and broken and trod over by circumstances, and who's learned that people are out to get him. The manipulation is a powerless child's attempt at exerting control over his environment. We see Ye Zun as a victim of the original rebel leader; from that moment, he had perhaps a month or so* of ruling the rebels before he was stuffed into his pillar.
When gaining control of the rebels, Ye Zun learned that might makes right. Another thing he must've learned, based on his interactions with his subordinates in the present, is that people are terrible, and one must hurt them–betray them–abandon them before they hurt–betray–abandon you, because they will do it. Compare this to Shen Wei, who is mistrustful of Haixingians, and thinks e.g. the SID will hurt him, based on his valid fears and Zhao Xinci's attitude, but gets proven wrong when he lets Zhao Yunlan and the SID closer to him despite this fear, and finds that they accept him just fine. Shen Wei could do this because he set himself up to nobly suffer and be the bigger person (and because he was very thirsty for Kunlun content). Ye Zun couldn't do this, because he did not have the security and "internal power base" that would give the necessary margin for error.
In conclusion, Ye Zun as we know him is paranoid, and cruel, and above all utterly terrified of letting people close enough they could hurt him, but he still craves attachment with people, because if human is a social animal, so is a Dixingian. All the bombast is a performance where he tries to convince himself that he deserves to take up this space around him when his confidence has been abused out of him. My problem is this: what do I do with him after that moment of crisis where he discovers that his assumptions about his brother were incorrect, and our heroes can begin to unravel the lies the original rebel leader told him? Who does Ye Zun become, if given a chance to heal? The same scared child, reminiscent of Guo Changcheng, but allowed to fear and cry and be comforted? A prickly brat who pushes at every boundary to try and invoke the punishment he's familar with, because this security and love is too much, too weird for him? A slightly more apologetic and remorseful Shen Wei? I suppose it'd depend on the nature of redemption, and where it diverged from canon, but I'm lost at sea, searching for land. Thoughts are welcome.
* We see Zhao Yunlan instruct Ma Gui on wine-making, and then be present to see the results of said wine-making. (Episodes relating to the Yashou tribe leadership twig.) Fermenting baijiu takes a month or two, depending on how one does it, so we can reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
We see him in canon, and know how he is as a villain, but I'd actually argue that all of that is a mask. We see him put on what I see as a very intentional performance of bravado and confidence. However, that's not his "true" personality, that's the metaphorical mask he wears to go with his literal one.
Much has been made about Shen Wei's mask(s), and as Shen Wei's color palette swapped identical twin and narrative foil, Ye Zun also wears a mask. We don't hear him say why he wears the mask, but given that no-one else wears one fulltime, it's no widespread Dixingian custom. At one point he mentions hating his face, because it looks so much like his brother's, but when it comes to invading Haixing, he could just as well do it without a mask and ruin Shen Wei's reputation as an aside, and yet he doesn't. I suspect his reasons for keeping on the mask are similar to what drove Shen Wei to donning his: he wants to hide his youth, inexperience, fear, and appear to be the supervillain he wants to be.
But all of that is performance. We see the metaphorical mask crack when the literal one does: the final episodes have Ye Zun descend into ranting. No-one ever asked him why he was doing what he was doing. While Zhao Yunlan reached out to young Shen Wei as Kunlun, no-one did that to Ye Zun. Combined with Ye Zun's jealous outburst in the time travel episode ("I've always put you first in my heart, gege, but in your heart, others have always come before me.") and his final conversations with Zhao Yunlan when everything is disintegrating, I find it hard to believe he's anything but how we saw him in the Ye Zun shot that comes first in the timeline: someone who's been hurt and broken and trod over by circumstances, and who's learned that people are out to get him. The manipulation is a powerless child's attempt at exerting control over his environment. We see Ye Zun as a victim of the original rebel leader; from that moment, he had perhaps a month or so* of ruling the rebels before he was stuffed into his pillar.
When gaining control of the rebels, Ye Zun learned that might makes right. Another thing he must've learned, based on his interactions with his subordinates in the present, is that people are terrible, and one must hurt them–betray them–abandon them before they hurt–betray–abandon you, because they will do it. Compare this to Shen Wei, who is mistrustful of Haixingians, and thinks e.g. the SID will hurt him, based on his valid fears and Zhao Xinci's attitude, but gets proven wrong when he lets Zhao Yunlan and the SID closer to him despite this fear, and finds that they accept him just fine. Shen Wei could do this because he set himself up to nobly suffer and be the bigger person (and because he was very thirsty for Kunlun content). Ye Zun couldn't do this, because he did not have the security and "internal power base" that would give the necessary margin for error.
In conclusion, Ye Zun as we know him is paranoid, and cruel, and above all utterly terrified of letting people close enough they could hurt him, but he still craves attachment with people, because if human is a social animal, so is a Dixingian. All the bombast is a performance where he tries to convince himself that he deserves to take up this space around him when his confidence has been abused out of him. My problem is this: what do I do with him after that moment of crisis where he discovers that his assumptions about his brother were incorrect, and our heroes can begin to unravel the lies the original rebel leader told him? Who does Ye Zun become, if given a chance to heal? The same scared child, reminiscent of Guo Changcheng, but allowed to fear and cry and be comforted? A prickly brat who pushes at every boundary to try and invoke the punishment he's familar with, because this security and love is too much, too weird for him? A slightly more apologetic and remorseful Shen Wei? I suppose it'd depend on the nature of redemption, and where it diverged from canon, but I'm lost at sea, searching for land. Thoughts are welcome.
* We see Zhao Yunlan instruct Ma Gui on wine-making, and then be present to see the results of said wine-making. (Episodes relating to the Yashou tribe leadership twig.) Fermenting baijiu takes a month or two, depending on how one does it, so we can reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
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Date: 2019-01-24 16:49 (UTC)The mask is an interesting point, and I like your take on that! That really resonates with me.
I did think he was the leader of that rebel group for longer, not just a month; I'd assumed there was a longer gap between the moment we see him kill the previous leader and the moment he gets stuffed into the pillar. But I could be wrong; I'd just assumed he'd actually got some time to be known as terrifying... The timeline of Guardian occasionally breaks my brain.
I don't think, though, that he'd turn into another Guo just because now he knows about what really happened with Shen Wei. I think there are interesting options to explore with him, but I also think that if you're used to doing things the easy way (as opposed to how Shen Wei chose to do things) and used to using POWER to do things the easy way, that would be a hard pattern to break and take some doing. (How available is therapy in the afterlife, I wonder?)
Shen Wei could do this because he set himself up to nobly suffer and be the bigger person (and because he was very thirsty for Kunlun content).
LOL. Truest words. *g*
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Date: 2019-01-24 17:35 (UTC)The thing is, he kills the rebel leader the night he presents the recently-stolen hallows to him (and it's implied that this is happening at the same time Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan are having their clifftop conversation – while one brother was having a revelation that he could be a man instead of a knife, the other was having a revelation that if he was a sharp enough knife, no-one would try to punch him), after Zhao Yunlan arrives into the past to shoot at the rebel leader, and he gets pillared when Zhao Yunlan leaves, so he's the leader of the rebels for exactly as long as Zhao Yunlan stays in the past. However, I'm not sure if the authorities are that up to date on the changes in rebel leadership, and he could've always started gathering a reputation before his ascent. After all, he did steal those hallows despite having zero Dixing powers...
Oh, no, I didn't mean exactly like Guo, that's too much Guo Changcheng, but, idk, someone who cries when he's happy, because feeling okay and cared for and safe is just too much and he can't really believe it sometimes? That I could buy, even as an endpoint but certainly as a phase in his recovery. I'm mostly just trying to figure out a roadmap. I guess I'll have to write at least one fic where he gets redeemed before I can write one other idea that requires a Ye Zun who pulled himself together offscreen so the fic can concentrate on Shen Wei.
Therapy might not be available in the afterlife, but Shen Wei is there to listen to his didi, and if going canon divergence, Ye Zun could potentially be carted off to therapy. Zhao Yunlan might be a good interim bet, actually, provided that Ye Zun hasn't eaten Shen Wei yet. He can see through people's motivations and can poke and prod them excellently, and trying to fix Shen Wei's brother into not invading Haixing would be a good mixture of personal and professional motivation. With his insights into human nature, he might even be able to weed out the "I am a powerless, trapped animal" POV Ye Zun has on a lot of things, power usage included, and get him to realize that he does have that room to maneuver that power brings.
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Date: 2019-01-24 18:11 (UTC)Oh your way with words!This is so perfect for these moments.
Oh I really like the idea of Zhao talking to Ye Zun out of personal and professional motivations. But you are right this only works if Ye Zun hasn#t eaten his brother yet.
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Date: 2019-01-24 18:16 (UTC)Honestly, had Shen Wei told Zhao Yunlan that Ye Zun was his brother, I think Yunlan would've gone further in his attempts to talk to Ye Zun/talk Ye Zun out of it – treating Ye Zun as the awkward brother-in-law he has to live with, rather than an evil villain who is best left locked up like Dixingians intended. Alas.
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Date: 2019-01-24 18:01 (UTC)He may start out with the mask because his face is his brother's, but when it turns out his brother is ALSO wearing a mask, that motive doesn't really hold any more. He's absolutely putting on a performance. What I can never quite decide is just how self-aware Ye Zun is about it.
(With Shen Wei, he's doing it all very deliberately and consciously; with Ye Zun, I'm just not sure.)
I find it hard to believe he's anything but how we saw him in the Ye Zun shot that comes first in the timeline: someone who's been hurt and broken and trod over by circumstances, and who's learned that people are out to get him
Yes, that's how I see him too.
Who does Ye Zun become, if given a chance to heal? The same scared child, reminiscent of Guo Changcheng, but allowed to fear and cry and be comforted? A prickly brat who pushes at every boundary to try and invoke the punishment he's familar with, because this security and love is too much, too weird for him? A slightly more apologetic and remorseful Shen Wei?
That's a really difficult question, yeah. I only ever got as far as deciding he'd probably veer wildly between different modes at least for the first little while, from clingy to standoffish and all of the things you mention. I don't think he'd end up very much like Shen Wei, though he'd be more expressive, less ... is "contained" the word I'm looking for here? I'm not sure.
* We see Zhao Yunlan instruct Ma Gui on wine-making, and then be present to see the results of said wine-making. (Episodes relating to the Yashou tribe leadership twig.) Fermenting baijiu takes a month or two, depending on how one does it, so we can reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
Ooooh, that's interesting! I really need to rewatch this part again ...
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Date: 2019-01-24 18:35 (UTC)Huh, yeah, that's another thing I'm unsure of! I think I'd go for a more unaware Ye Zun, since he seems slightly unhinged in general, though I suppose some of his decisions would be conscious. He's fascinating in that way, and in many ways comes across as a drowning man clinging to any scraps that may keep him afloat.
Not exactly like Shen Wei, no, but something sort of in the same vicinity as the Professor Shen persona might be doable? IDK. I do think he'd wear a less-thick mask than Shen Wei does, though, after breaking through one mask already. "Less contained" would certainly fit, but perhaps you mean "less intentional"? Shen Wei is very much contained, and has intentionally built up his persona; Ye Zun would have a less consciously constructed persona and be less contained.
A large chunk of people think Zhao Yunlan only stayed in the past for two days, based on how the eps 33-34 are cut, but he really must've stayed there longer, both for relationship plot reasons (unless he was like, the best lay ever, there's no way Shen Wei would be that invested in him after merely one night – or rather, the Shen Wei options that leave him that invested after one night of chatting are very depressing) and for the Yashou Twig Key Thingy reasons! Lots of people forget the latter, though, since it comes up in a later episode.
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Date: 2019-01-24 20:14 (UTC)*gasp* But what about Love At First Sight?!?! Heh.
Idk, I feel like their love story is enough of a heightened-emotion fairy tale that I can buy the idea of young!Shen Wei deciding he'd finally met his soulmate as one of the possible interpretations of events. (And also of ZYL going, "OMG this Shen Wei is a baby, I just can't!" and contenting himself with flirting madly. Hee!) Equally, a few weeks or a month of seduction and sexing works, but then oh man, meeting ZYL for the first time and not being recognised or acknowledged must have been so painful!
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Date: 2019-01-24 20:36 (UTC)See, I do believe in Lust At First Sight, but the type of love that makes someone stay single and search for the other party for over a decade? Nah, that requires an actual fucking relationship, and the shorter the relationship is, the more tragic and dysfunctional things it implies about the waiting partner. I'd go as far as saying that pining is a (minor) squick of mine! *g* (Likely a manifestation of my soulmates squick.)
With Shen Wei, I'm willing to believe that he waited over a decade because of a month-long relationship, since Zhao Yunlan was the first person ever to express interest in Shen Wei the person, rather than just "Black-Cloaked Envoy, have we won the war yet?" plus variants, and that sort of sexual awakening plus just accidentally ... uhh, dare I say grooming? unwittingly manipulating? an isolated youth would leave an impact. What rescues it from the squick pile is how good Zhao Yunlan is to Shen Wei, every step of the way, plus how Shen Wei did things that weren't just pining for Kunlun and "preserving himself in amber" so Kunlun wouldn't object to anything he might change – he got a PhD in genetics and is now tutoring his academic heirs, in addition to the Black-Cloaked Envoy job. He changed, he let himself change in ways unrelated to Kunlun's encouragements, and Zhao Yunlan loved him the whole way through.
Baby Shen Wei might be a baby compared to the Professor we know and love, but he's still old enough to be a general, so likely old enough to sex up. I imagine Zhao Yunlan would expend some effort in making sure that Shen Wei's first time was appropriately mind-blowing, and made sure to use all the information he'd gained from bedding present Shen Wei to his advantage. ;)
Ahh yes it must've! It's also an underused source of angst for fic. He probably figured out roughly what was going on soonish, but those first few moments? Agony.
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Date: 2019-01-24 20:53 (UTC)See, that's what Shen Wei says, but I think my headcanon is more along the lines of actually half the army is in love with the Envoy, to some degree, but he doesn't notice or acknowledge it because he's greysexual and doesn't return their interest. Kunlun is the first/only person he's really attracted to.
So I don't really think of it as pining (or even searching that much) so much as waiting. He still makes friends with other people, exchanges correspondence with old classmates, etc. but I don't feel like he's denying himself while he waits. Just in the back of his mind, he's always holding the promise that they'll meet again.
I mean, like I say, I'm willing to hold multiple versions of events in my mind, but this is one of them.
plus how Shen Wei did things that weren't just pining for Kunlun and "preserving himself in amber" so Kunlun wouldn't object to anything he might change
Yes, that's really important.
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Date: 2019-01-24 21:50 (UTC)Huh, half the army admiring the Envoy is certainly something I can buy, but not sort of ... being in love and showing it. Silently wisting, sure, but not anything Shen Wei is aware of, because none of them have behaved "inappropriately" and asked about who he is behind the mask. Somewhere,
I'm willing to characterize it as waiting/extremely lowkey pining! I just ... don't see Shen Wei as grey ace or kunlunsexual, since DNW single-target sexualities, and he did fall in love with one dude pretty hard on limited contact. IDK. I guess it comes from my soulmate squick? Though Shen Wei being picky and a bit hard to approach would work just as well. Hm. I'm trying to figure out the preferred configuration of the concept space.
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Date: 2019-01-27 12:53 (UTC)He still makes friends with other people, exchanges correspondence with old classmates, etc. but I don't feel like he's denying himself while he waits. Just in the back of his mind, he's always holding the promise that they'll meet again.
Yes, this. I mean, arguably there's plenty of denial once they meet again, with all the related angst, but for me there's no sense of him putting anything on hold or the like.
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Date: 2019-01-27 22:37 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-28 20:30 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:27 (UTC)Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. Also as the contrasting mirror image to Shen Wei.
"Less contained" would certainly fit, but perhaps you mean "less intentional"? Shen Wei is very much contained, and has intentionally built up his persona; Ye Zun would have a less consciously constructed persona and be less contained.
Less deliberate, maybe? But yes, all of that.
A large chunk of people think Zhao Yunlan only stayed in the past for two days
And it's certainly cut to make it look that way! Though it never did make much sense with the relationships. I don't get why they cut the episode that way, honestly. But I'm happy to take my canon from the key thingy instead.
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Date: 2019-01-24 21:06 (UTC)Same! And it'd have taken such a small amount of editing – just have a slow fade from the clifftop into a silent shot with gesticulating over a map and then a slow fade into the Ye Zun action sequence, to make space in the narrative for time to pass! Sigh. Ah well, at least we have the key thingy to offer a saner take. (And I wonder: did the script originally look like this, or was there something they had to cut due to budget issues?)
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Date: 2019-01-24 21:48 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 21:52 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 18:08 (UTC)reasonably conclude that Zhao Yunlan was in the past for at least a month.
and imagine how Zhao Yunlan acts out a careful seduction of young Shen Wei. Sorry, one track mind.
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Date: 2019-01-24 18:18 (UTC)Oh, I know. I'm reasonably certain Zhao Yunlan the lecherous perv was young Shen Wei's sexual awakening as well as his ... human? awakening where he realized people will like him for what is behind the mask as well.
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Date: 2019-01-24 20:06 (UTC)Haha perfect icon choice.
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Date: 2019-01-24 20:46 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:54 (UTC)Accurate.
couldn't resist bringing out Da Quin
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Date: 2019-01-24 20:06 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:16 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 20:20 (UTC)Oh cool! :-)
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Date: 2019-01-24 21:08 (UTC)Another question I find impossible to avoid is why the heck Shen Wei did not talk to his brother after he woke up. I think that might play an important role in what kind of relationship Ye Zun and Shen Wei could eventually have.
(Also, he must have been so vulnerable to manipulation, stuck in that pillar all alone... someone like the Judiciar could have twisted him into anything he wanted.)
As for who Ye Zun might eventually become, currently to me the most plausible version of your possibilities is "prickly brat" (if not necessarily in search of punishment but more like reassurance that he won't be abandoned at the drop of a hat.) But maybe I'm still influenced by the Ye Zun of the Sandman fusion fic that I enjoyed a lot.
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Date: 2019-01-24 21:31 (UTC)Oh yeah, that as well. Dude really needs some therapy and support.
Shen Wei did talk to Ye Zun after he woke up (we see this in ep 34's catchup sequence), but before that, he talked to the Chancellor dude, and depending on what he was told, could've been under the impression that Ye Zun was dumped into Dixing, then slaughtered some Dixingians before being stuffed into a pillar.
Aw fuck. That- yeah. A very convenient enemy for the populace to hate, and to manipulate into being the bad guy who'd attract others to his immobile headquarters, where they could be identified and dealt with. Fuck. Poor Ye Zun, used even when he was a wannabe villain.
That will likely be one point on the way, but I don't think it'd be the endpoint of his journey. (If only because a bunch of other similarishly redeemed characters end up as prickly brats, and as Ye Zun has the potential to be something completely different, he likely should be.) Someone just a bit fragile and vulnerable, but identifiable as a relative of Shen Wei's? IDK.
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Date: 2019-01-24 21:16 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-24 22:02 (UTC)WAIT NO I DON'T! OMG. Poor Ye Zun. (Was that when he was delivering the hallows, or?) Especially since this must've happened throughout his childhood.
This sounds very useful! I think I'll sow some idea seedlings here and see what harvest I can reap... A significantly less proud and more remorseful Shen Wei does seem a reasonable endpoint for our Ye Zun. Hmm.
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Date: 2019-01-24 22:15 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-25 13:13 (UTC)In this as in Rediscovery, Reconstruction, I shall likely pick your brains on how the psychology of abuse would work in this case.
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Date: 2019-01-26 01:15 (UTC)Yikes, that is a thing, isn't it. Makes a lot of sense that he'd never, never want to return to that state, driving him head-on into the supervillainy! Ahh, Ye Zun hurts my poor heart. Not to mention, the original rebel leader convinced him that his brother abandoned him for being pathetic, but kept him going by feeding him the idea of revenge against that brother who left him. It really is as he says to Shen Wei, "I've always put you first in my heart, gege." Whether that's love or hate, Shen Wei was likely his reason to keep living in his shitty circumstances.
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Date: 2019-01-26 17:11 (UTC)Oh no, the angst keeps going deeper and deeper! Poor Ye Zun, I really just want to wrap him up in a blanket and tell him it'll be all right. Or make Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei team up to wrap him up in a blanket and tell him it'll be all right.
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Date: 2019-01-26 18:58 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-25 01:52 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-25 11:26 (UTC)Ooh, this is interesting! He absorbed the mind control powers from the original rebel leader, and while they're only stated to work on "small fry" (like Ye Zun himself oh my god), I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him some sort of boost in reading people. And if he's a mask, well, the mask can be freely changed, it's not related to who he himself is, he can alter it to suit the occasion – this mask to lure in this person, another one for that one, etc. Lots to think about!
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Date: 2019-01-25 22:10 (UTC)Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh which I guess I am already doing but yeah: there will be more Ye Zun. (More than I ever anticipated, that is for sure, and I regret nothing. It's been so rewarding! He's such a fascinating, fucked-up character, I just - I have a lot of feelings. ;___; Anyway. I can't wait to share what I've come up with, even if I do it by way of fic rather than meta!)
(And it's not a spoiler to mention that the everybody lives in the AU tag really does mean EVERYBODY.)
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Date: 2019-01-25 22:29 (UTC)Oops! Write a Ye Zun meta post of your own when you're done with your WIP? :P
One of the reasons I picked up your WIP to read was that you mentioned that "everybody lives" really did mean everybody, including Ye Zun, and I liked the bit where you set up the ... redemption, or survival, or whatever you're doing by having Zhao Yunlan note that Ye Zun is mad (and thus should be sent to therapy, probably) and wanted to know what made him so. (I am a busy penguin with noninfinite time.)
There are a few other long meta posts percolating in my mind (I've mentioned the OCs one, and the human/monster relationships one); another one that comes to mind is how one's views on justice will shape how one approaches villains. The Nordic model of restorative justice weighs heavily on at least my mind, while lots of people from elsewhere don't seem to consider anything beyond the death penalty.
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Date: 2019-01-25 22:40 (UTC)But yeah, at this point I can't really separate what canon intended for Ye Zun and what I have read into canon and added to and tweaked until I have something that makes sense to me?
I'm glad you've picked up on Zhao Yunlan's reaction to Ye Zun - that is indeed the first building block for everything that is to comes. (You can have compassion even for people who have done terrible things - and a big fat yes to restorative justice!) Canon unfortunately did the thing where Yunlan only confronted Ye Zun about what he wanted after Shen Wei was already (as good as) dead, and so... that's not really a conversation that could ever go anywhere?
It makes me really hopeful that in canon, Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei both agree that there are things more important than rules and punishment - there is no justice in punishing a child, for example. Especially not one who only killed her abuser! I also feel that the show's attitude towards Sang Zan hints at there being virtue in forgiving past mistakes - dude straight up murdered Ge Lan's family (which one could argue was justified - but then he went ahead and murdered more folks in revenge for killing Ge Lan), and she still wants to be with him in their afterlife and the SID totally adopt him.
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Date: 2019-01-25 23:15 (UTC)He wasn't ever in the foreground enough that I think any of us can do it. I've even encountered people who think he'd be some master manipulator enjoying manipulating people, which I think just isn't him – it's the shell beneath which Ye Zun exists. I do think he's part of the series' theme of "if you're looking for revenge, you should just rethink it and not get vengeance on the wrong person, stupid" that we saw with e.g. Sha Ya and Merit Brush Dude.
Alas. Had Zhao Yunlan been inclined to chat with Ye Zun in the opportunities he was given, or had another opportunity to chat with him, things might've turned out differently. After all, Zhao Yunlan is an astute observer of people, and also generally inclined to be merciful. He doesn't hate easily; the only person we see him hate in-show is Ye Zun after Ye Zun has easten Shen Wei. If handed the knowledge that Ye Zun and Shen Wei were related before the very end of the time travel segment, he'd likely try to see if Ye Zun could be redeemed, if only for Shen Wei's peace of mind.
Big yes on both Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei being into the spirit of the law instead of simply the letter. Shen Wei was willing to let Sha Ya and her flowershop friend stay above ground, and they let Ya Qing live in peace once she defected. Chu Shuzhi is allowed to be a SID member, even if he killed people and tried to convince xiao-Guo he's a cannibal. And the bit with Sang Zan, too. It's very ... one can let go of one's past and change sides. They even let Cong Bo join the team despite his earlier antagonism towards them. The SID is, at heart, very forgiving of people who admit they were wrong.
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Date: 2019-01-27 20:17 (UTC)Wow - I hadn't even considered doing that, but yeah. There's a LOT of meta underneath it all. I wrote daily bits (1-2k words, usually) and sent them to Xparrot, who would then give me an insta-reaction, which would let me go if I was going in the wrong direction or not. There were a couple of wrong turns, including a major one with Ye Zun I have hopefully fixed satisfactorily? But those kind of things lead to a lot of discussion between the two of us.
Alas. Had Zhao Yunlan been inclined to chat with Ye Zun in the opportunities he was given, or had another opportunity to chat with him, things might've turned out differently.
I am absolutely convinced it would have. Zhao Yunlan has such capacity for compassion, and that's - something Ye Zun really, really has not had much of in his life. And of course, with his love for Shen Wei, he'd want Shen Wei to have his brother back.
The SID is, at heart, very forgiving of people who admit they were wrong.
And I really do love this about them. <333
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Date: 2019-01-27 21:29 (UTC)Once you're done, I'd actually like to have an entire self-indulgent post of "here's what I almost did, but didn't for this reason" etc; I'm always super interested in others' creative processes and what they considered doing but chose against, and why.
Yup! It's what I really like about Zhao Yunlan. And he'd definitely be a positive influence on Ye Zun, just like he was on Shen Wei.
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Date: 2019-01-31 20:09 (UTC)Yup! It's what I really like about Zhao Yunlan. And he'd definitely be a positive influence on Ye Zun, just like he was on Shen Wei.
Yessss, I can absolutely see this.
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Date: 2019-01-31 21:09 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-27 12:56 (UTC)I also find this interesting in terms of au fics. If Ye Zun didn't have that lasting trauma from childhood, what kind of person is he? What is the twins' relationship like without that standing between them? Definitely food for thought. XD
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Date: 2019-01-28 18:10 (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-28 20:39 (UTC)(Sooo, like the Weasley twins only without the constant pranking/trolling of everybody, then? >.>)
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Date: 2019-01-29 11:26 (UTC)Yes! I'm also convinced that this was the reason that Shen Wei saved Chu Shuzhi from further punishment and made him his spy in the SID. "I relate to you very hard for failing your twin, so here's a reason for being for you."
Not really, more like ... they want to look like each other, since they are ~the same~, but are sort of constantly surprised that others can't tell them apart, since they sure can.
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Date: 2019-01-29 15:12 (UTC)Yes, definitely. There's a whole lot of understanding there, even if Shen Wei doesn't carry the same kind of rage that Chu Shuzhi does.
Not really, more like ... they want to look like each other, since they are ~the same~, but are sort of constantly surprised that others can't tell them apart, since they sure can.
*laughs* "What do you mean, you can't tell us apart? Just because we dress the same and act the same, what about that makes us so identical???"