Homophobia in Haixing

[extrapenguin]

If I were to write a Guardian fic the point of which was something completely unrelated to homophobia, but which ended with Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan getting a happily ever after, what level of societal homophobia would not throw you out of the story? Would you find it jarring if they dared hold hands in public? If they dared kiss? If they introduced each other as romantic partners in casual-ish conversation without too much euphemism? Their nearest and dearest would know, and marriage wouldn't be on the table anyway, but ... what is the range of attitudes that wouldn't have the readership's suspension of disbelief come crashing down?

On the one hand, I want this to be happily-ever-after dancing on roses without a cloud in sight; on the other, a lot of the relationship developments of canon make more sense if Haixing is at least somewhat homophobic. So: advice?

Comments

[rheasilvia]

To me, the canon seems heteronormative, but not homophobic - which is a contradiction that actually gives you a lot of leeway, because you can basically interpret this in whichever way you want.

Thing is, getting a proper and non-contradictory read on society's view of homosexuality in a series where censorship prevents homosexuality from being overtly mentioned, while it is so blatantly implicit that it rises to the level of accepted canon... yeah, that's not going to happen. ;-)

Personally, I read Haixing as only very mildly homophobic. This is because nobody has a negative reaction to the relationship between Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei because of the fact that they are both men. (Zhu Hong is simply jealous, and even Zhao Xinci - who I feel would be a homophobe, if that was at all a thing - seems indifferent to the m/m aspect, and tries to warn Zhao Yunlan off because Shen Wei is from Dixing.) They also never appear to hide the relationship in any way; Zhao Yunlan has no issues with snuggling and flirting regardless of whether or not other people can see. The other two gay and lesbian couples don't seem to run into homophobia issues either (which, yes, it couldn't be mentioned, but...).

[trobadora]

heteronormative, but not homophobic

Aaaah, why didn't I read the comments before trying to write my own?! I could have just pointed here! Because THIS.

[extrapenguin]

heteronormative, but not homophobic
Thing is, getting a proper and non-contradictory read on society's view of homosexuality in a series where censorship prevents homosexuality from being overtly mentioned, while it is so blatantly implicit that it rises to the level of accepted canon... yeah, that's not going to happen. ;-)
Huh, that's ... interesting. To me, the censorship-mandated lack of explicit confirmation that the relationship is romantic comes across as the characters self-censoring due to societal homophobia, since everyone accepts them as a couple but doesn't mention is, as if gayness was That Thing That Must Not Be Named. After they get together, even Zhao Yunlan's snuggling and flirting abates a lot; beforehand, it was a tool for getting people off their A-game and in a mildly homophobic society that might work even better.

[bonibaru]

But even the hetero-normative couples in the drama aren't very publicly demonstrative unless they are already married/ canonically engaged-to-be-married couples (which SW & ZYL are not, canonically, as far as we know before the drama ends). At most the other couples might hold hands or give affectionate smiles. So it's not like another series where you have the het couples in sweaty naked bed scenes and the gay couple exchanging a demure peck on the cheek.
And SW/ZYL pretty much do the smiling part and they have no issue touching each other in front of other people, even if it's merely a bro-tastic forearm clasp instead of outright hand holding. ZYL escorting SW home clutching his arm after the pillar excursion is in full-on public.

[extrapenguin]

The main part of my argument is that the way people talk about our (potential) gay couples is very different to how people talk about even Sha Ya/Lin Jing and Da Qing/Da Ji. With the het couples, it's "crush" and "girlfriend"; with the gay couples, it's "interest" and "friend". Basically it's the asymmetry of word choice that pings my homophobia alarms.

[rheasilvia]

Given how everybody clearly sees the relationship as romantic and sexual, and how *nobody* actually treats them or the relationship differently as a result, the word choice in itself never registered as homophobic with me. If there were a significant level of homophobia, at least some people would have negative attitudes and use actual slurs. The simple absence of direct acknowledgment by itself doesn't seem that significant to me, when balanced against everything else.

[extrapenguin]

If there were a significant level of homophobia, at least some people would have negative attitudes and use actual slurs.
This doesn't necessarily follow? After all, something must be enforcing that silence (see thread below that started as a reply to naye), and Zhao Yunlan outright says that the SID is a tolerant and all-inclusive workplace, so it's plausible that the only people who've been told are of the known to be non-homophobic sort, and the homophobes wouldn't necessarily have put together the clues, especially since Zhao Yunlan is by nature physically demonstrative. (But mostly my gutfeels come from the fact that it's something that everyone seems to find unnameable. If there were no homophobia, people could apply a term to the relationship. As is, it seems like so much playing of the pronoun game, except with the boyfriends next to each other.)

[(Anonymous)]

This is exactly the contradiction in canon that I'm talking about - on the one hand, homosexuality is never explicitly mentioned, but on the other, not even a hint of overt homophobia is ever shown. To me, the lack of visible homophobia is the more striking factor; to you, it's the lack of acknowledgment of homosexuality. There's no way to reconcile those two contradictory aspects without the help of extra-canonical speculation, so which interpretation you choose is up to you - they're supported/non-supported by canon to the same degree. Not entirely satisfactory, but, yeah. ;-)

[rheasilvia]

Oops, that was me! Sorry.

[rheasilvia]

This is how I see it, as well; to me, the differences in the various couples' relationships seem to be based in their personalities and the stage of the relationship rather than the fact some are homo- and some heterosexual couples. Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei are actually pretty publically demonstrative in some ways, with the staring and the besotted smiling and the touching.

[rheasilvia]

the censorship-mandated lack of explicit confirmation that the relationship is romantic comes across as the characters self-censoring due to societal homophobia, since everyone accepts them as a couple

This is very interesting! As I said, I think the series does allow you to read this in it, because of its built-in contradictory messages. But personally, it honestly would never have occurred to me to read homophobia here - it isn't as though there is any overt discussion of heterosexual relationships, either, or any het PDA that goes above loving touches and looks - which the main m/m couple also do. To me it seems as though all relationships - homo- and heterosexual - are treated the same, with any differences in demonstrativeness down to the stage of the relationship and the personality of the people involved.