Homophobia in Haixing

[extrapenguin]

If I were to write a Guardian fic the point of which was something completely unrelated to homophobia, but which ended with Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan getting a happily ever after, what level of societal homophobia would not throw you out of the story? Would you find it jarring if they dared hold hands in public? If they dared kiss? If they introduced each other as romantic partners in casual-ish conversation without too much euphemism? Their nearest and dearest would know, and marriage wouldn't be on the table anyway, but ... what is the range of attitudes that wouldn't have the readership's suspension of disbelief come crashing down?

On the one hand, I want this to be happily-ever-after dancing on roses without a cloud in sight; on the other, a lot of the relationship developments of canon make more sense if Haixing is at least somewhat homophobic. So: advice?

Comments

[naye]

I would absolutely hate if I was reading a Guardian story and came across random homophobia. There's no canonical basis for it, and I would find it extremely jarring to have homophobia come up either casually or as a major plot point. My still okay limit would be something along the lines of "oh, that's not very... traditional" to a same-sex couple being married. Negative reactions to Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei holding hands would be a hard nope.

If you want some kind of cloud hanging over the relationship, go with something about Dixing/Haixing relationships being societally taboo - there's absolutely no joy for me in fic that reminds that homophobia is a real thing in real life. I'm already plenty aware, thanks. (I am also plenty tired of homophobia used for angst purposes in fic.)

Obviously this would be different in a novelverse story, where I'd be braced for the canon homphobia already. But dramaverse? Honestly, just go full marriage equality, because why the hell should being gay be an impediment to a fictional happy ever after?

[extrapenguin]

There's no canonical basis for it,
See, I can't help but read the ... forced silence, if you will, as evidence of societal homophobia. If homophobia didn't exist, they wouldn't all be playing coy about the nature of their relationship. (And yes, censorship, but this is an in-universe perspective and I can't just easily imagine that they'd do something offscreen that canceled my read on the homophobia.) See also my reply to qikiqtarjuaq above.

That said, it wouldn't be misery porn homophobia, merely background knowledge I'd use to map out the boundaries of character interaction – how public they'd wish to be, knowing that x amount of homophobia exists in society, compared to how public they'd be if they lived in a homophobia-free place.

If you want some kind of cloud hanging over the relationship,
I actually don't. This is me finding Haixing society as portrayed in the drama as being homophobic, and wanting to know other people's opinions on what amounts of homophobia in Haixing society wouldn't jar them out of a fic.

[bonibaru]

As noted above I don't think it's as much homophobia as it is that no couples behave in an overtly physically affectionate manner in public outside of those who are married or engaged. I might be missing one but if I am I am positive that someone who does remember a particular hetero-normative scene that is the exception will gently and kindly remind me of what I am forgetting lol.

[trobadora]

For me as a viewer, there's an obvious, blatant inequality in that there are plenty of hetero couples who are openly acknowledged as couples, and there are no non-hetero couples who are openly acknowledged as couples. Not even in the context of an actual jealousy plotline!

I mean, for obvious reasons, but the world the show portrays does have that inequality, so entirely homophobia-free doesn't ring true for me.

[bonibaru]

Inequity is one thing, and if there is inequity in the fic to the same degree, then it's canon-compliant, yes?

So then inserting more blatant homophobia in a direct, open, explicitly stated form would be a step away from canon. Only one person's opinion, i.e. mine :D ymmv

[trobadora]

if there is inequity in the fic to the same degree, then it's canon-compliant, yes?

Yes, entirely agreed! I think the problem arises when you go and have someone state outright what can never be stated in canon, because then you have to extrapolate the reaction. And then you have to judge what's still canon-compliant, what doesn't jive with the canonical silence (because if there were no consequences for breaking the silence, the silence would have no reason to exist) and what's going too far on the too-blatant homophobia front ...

/my take

[jo_lasalle]

I think the problem arises when you go and have someone state outright what can never be stated in canon, because then you have to extrapolate the reaction. And then you have to judge what's still canon-compliant, what doesn't jive with the canonical silence (because if there were no consequences for breaking the silence, the silence would have no reason to exist) and what's going too far on the too-blatant homophobia front

I think this is a great way of putting the dilemma. (And what makes me kind of meandering-unsure-gut-feeling-IDK-what-I-would-do-either.)

[trobadora]

It's really difficult in the abstract! I could probably argue something for a specific scenario, but in general ... yeah. I don't know either.

[jo_lasalle]

Your thing really helped me figure out what I meant with being "jarred" in my own comment** - because it's really not that I need more homophobia in my fic or anything, but in that judgement of how to extrapolate from the silence, something like "Shen Wei and ZYL get married and it's completely normal and issue-free" is a very strong call. Not a wrong call, but very strong, much like going wildly in the other direction would be. So it's like, sit-up-and-notice, for me.

**And I'm not saying that you're saying the same thing I'm saying, just that your point here made me figure out my own thing better.

[extrapenguin]

I think the problem arises when you go and have someone state outright what can never be stated in canon, because then you have to extrapolate the reaction. And then you have to judge what's still canon-compliant, what doesn't jive with the canonical silence (because if there were no consequences for breaking the silence, the silence would have no reason to exist) and what's going too far on the too-blatant homophobia front ...
Yes, this! I'd argue that even going into the characters' heads, as is typical in prose narration, requires going into at least characters' expectations for what could/would happen if they were (more) out about their relationship. Basically, all those implicit calculations have to be made explicit.

[rheasilvia]

Yes, exactly, to both of this! :-) And since narrative fiction works differently from film, the authors of fanfic have a much harder time avoiding the issue, seeing as they are inside the characters' heads in a way film is not. So here, it's the author who has to do the interpretation, when in film its the viewer.

I also interpret the canonical contradiction as mild homophobia - erring too far in either direction wouldn't ring true to me. Since I tend to give a bit more weight to the lack of overt homophobia than to the silence surrounding homosexuality, though, I do opt for "mild", and more blatant forms would seem jarring to me.

[extrapenguin]

I also interpret the canonical contradiction as mild homophobia - erring too far in either direction wouldn't ring true to me.
I do think it's mild rather than than hate crime misery porn homophobia, but the question is, how mild, and which would be the primary forms of it? Being passed over for promotion due to being seen as less suitable? Awkward pauses and pained expressions whenever anyone has to introduce them as a couple? Every bureaucracy being utterly baffled that they'd list each other as primary contacts and build a family together? Acquaintances frequently expressing wishes they'd find girlfriends? (I imagine at least some of this would be excacerbated by it being interspecies.) It is a delicate balance, where I want to stay within what is implied by canon and also not hit any of my own, personal issues.

[solo]

I agree that homophobia-free doesn't ring true (see my comment downthread) but I'd argue that at least Zhu Hong and the SID team agree that she and Shen Wei are both in the running for ZYL abd Shen Wei is winning - i.e. jealousy plotline. :)

I actually, while going over the ep 40 subs, came across a very explicit acknowledgement of that which I'd missed before.

[extrapenguin]

Yeah, attitudes would of course vary, and the SID is chill about it. (An inclusive and non-judgemental workplace, as Zhao Yunlan advertised it to the Envoy and Chu Shuzhi in the Hanga caves!) I'm trying to get a read on the average levels/societal stuff.

I actually, while going over the ep 40 subs, came across a very explicit acknowledgement of that which I'd missed before.
Ooh, what did it say?

[solo]

Towards the end, where Zhu Hong asserts her authority over her squabbling tribes, she starts out by saying 'I, your High Chief, was in love with the Lord Guardian as a rival to the Black-Cloaked Envoy.'

The origsubs had something like 'and fought against the Black-Cloaked Envoy, which makes no sense, and I've had input from Chinese speakers on this.

I have no idea how this is meant to be relevant to her leadership of the tribes, but there you are.

[extrapenguin]

Ah, thank you! That's interesting. I also have no idea what the relavance of it is in the conversation, but perhaps that, too, will become clear on a rewatch?

[solo]

My current theory is that she's simply trying to pull rank in terms of 'I had a close relationship with these amazing superheroes so you should listen to me'.

That she should feel she needs to is a bit sad, but thankfully she gets better from there.

[naye]

Hm. I didn't see Haixing as being portrayed as in any way homophobic (rather than "assumed heteronormative") in the show itself, but given that it doesn't make things clear one way or the other there is room for different interpretations of canon on that point.

But I also don't see either Zhao Yunlan or Shen Wei (possibly with the exception of when in the role of Professor Shen) as the sort of people who would let themselves be limited in any way by societal expectations. So I would be jarred out of any story where homophobia was a thing that affected their choices and behaviors.

[extrapenguin]

But I also don't see either Zhao Yunlan or Shen Wei (possibly with the exception of when in the role of Professor Shen) as the sort of people who would let themselves be limited in any way by societal expectations. So I would be jarred out of any story where homophobia was a thing that affected their choices and behaviors.
Limited by? No. Informed by? Very probably. So I wanted to make the actual societal background clear to myself, before I start thinking about what they'd suggest to each other or actually end up doing.

[naye]

That might work for me in context, though I think there's a strong possibility I would still find it too jarring. Either way, it's your story, and it sounds like you've got a clear idea for what you want in mind, so go for it.