please come tl;dr at me about Shen Wei

[extrapenguin]

I need to figure out stuff about Ye Zun, and [spoilers], but also stuff about Shen Wei! Since having other people say things about the thing is in general a productive way for me to acquire thoughts, I now invite your opinions on Shen Wei and secrecy. He's trying to tell Zhao Yunlan the absolute minimum to protect him and also the timeline, yes, but in a divergent scenario where he was unavoidably associated with Zhao Yunlan, how much would he tell? What do you think is the core of the (over)protectiveness and secrecy? What is the root of his nondisclosure?

Comments

[jo_lasalle]

I think the core of the overprotectiveness is a mix of love for a risk-taking guy, and the personality structure of someone who is a "put it all on my shoulders" type.

The secrecy, I've been thinking about a lot recently, and while on first watch, I thought it was primarily "for your own protection" stuff that is basically a trope for Hidden Identity characters, with a bit more distance and appreciation for the turn in the timeloop episodes, I think it really is to a great extent worry about the timeline, with some additional "this might make you a target" superhero stuff.

That's my general outline. To gauge more specifically, I'd probably need to know more specifics. *g*

[extrapenguin]

I think the core of the overprotectiveness is a mix of love for a risk-taking guy, and the personality structure of someone who is a "put it all on my shoulders" type.
Mm, yeah, this is where I stand as well.

That's my general outline. To gauge more specifically, I'd probably need to know more specifics. *g*
While there is some general interest, the specifics are mostly for the soulmate AU thingy now. If Shen Wei knew that Zhao Yunlan knew that the Envoy and Zhao Yunlan are soulmates, would Shen Wei try to hide his professorial alter ego (even if they'd already met in those clothes as well) to the limits of plausibility, or would he turn up for date night #1 in Envoy garb and say "btw, I daylight as a professor of bioengineering, also I brought your favorite homecooked foods" or something between those approaches?

[jo_lasalle]

Wait, so Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate; he doesn't know the Envoy is Shen Wei; Zhao Yunlan is the Chief of the SID/liasing with the Envoy; and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan go on a date?

If Zhao Yunlan didn't know the Envoy was his soulmate, I could see Shen Wei just generally being shy about volunteering this info that he's got this mysterious and important side gig, even if there were no timeline concerns. That is a pretty big deal, and just on the human level, 'how is my super duper crush and potential soulmate going to react???' is a natural response, and I think there'd be some leeway how that could go.

If Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate, and Shen Wei somehow goes on a date with him as Shen Wei... honestly, as much as I'd like complications and shenanigans, I don't see that he wouldn't 'fess up, awkward as the talk would be; he'd have no reason (not even an emo reason) to keep that information from Zhao Yunlan.

(The only reason I can come up with off the top of my head for someone in that position not to come clean would be if they're kind of anti-"soulmates-as-a-concept", and have an investment in trying to find out "does he really like me, or is he just going with Fate". But Shen Wei's not a guy who'd be against Fate, IMO, so in his case, I don't see that that would apply.)

[extrapenguin]

Wait, so Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate; he doesn't know the Envoy is Shen Wei; Zhao Yunlan is the Chief of the SID/liasing with the Envoy; and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan go on a date?
Sorry, I should've phrased that clearer – Zhao Yunlan invites the Envoy on a date. (In his apartment, which he has to clean, hence yesterday's snippet.) Zhao Yunlan met Shen Wei, canon proceeded as normal except that Shen Wei thought he was unrequieted soulmates with Kunlun and was miserable about that until Zhao Yunlan summoned the Envoy and did some linguistics/anthropology to determine that hey, they're soulmates! And invited him for dinner. So Zhao Yunlan and the Envoy are soulmates, and the Envoy knows that Zhao Yunlan has met his civilian disguise. Would the Envoy then tell Zhao Yunlan that actually, Shen Wei is also him, or would Zhao Yunlan have to figure that out himself?

[jo_lasalle]

Ah!

Okay, let me ask the return question: what reason would/could the Envoy have not to tell Zhao Yunlan he is also Shen Wei?

[extrapenguin]

He is sort of terrible at telling things in general/used to carrying all his knowledge himself, and so baffled at the situation it might just slip his mind until it's too awkward to tell? Straight-up telling would also be a significant departure from his canon characterization, which is why I would need to justify it to myself strongly. Zhao Yunlan would figure it out sooner than in canon, though.

[jo_lasalle]

He is sort of terrible at telling things in general/used to carrying all his knowledge himself

That's true, but there's usually some reason, even if it's a stupid reason he mostly tells himself.

I personally don't see that he'd have a reason even in his own head not to come clean, unless he somehow considered his Shen Wei persona not "really him" and a footnote, and something that would never concern Zhao Yunlan again, but I don't think he does. (And your phrasing that Zhao Yunlan would have to "figure it out" also implies to me that this isn't a story about 'Zhao Yunlan and the Black-Cloaked Envoy' and Shen Wei is an abberation that stops appearing after the set-up...)

would also be a significant departure from his canon characterization, which is why I would need to justify it to myself strongly.

I do get that and that's a good point! I also imagine Shen Wei is crap at being on a date, so in that sense, for the actual date, I think you have a lot of leeway how it might go.

I was answering more... structurally, with "would Zhao Yunlan have to figure it out for himself" in mind, and I'd find it very strange if Shen Wei actively kept the secret (as opposed to maybe being clueless and out of his depth in a specific situation, like a first date) for... I don't know what reason he'd do it for, really.

But yes, I just realised the difference between 'failing to say because loads of other things are going on and being out of his depth' and 'keeping a secret, deliberate omission, in a narrative where there is something-to-figure-out'.

Is my reaction as I'm thinking this through on the fly, anyway!

[extrapenguin]

I personally don't see that he'd have a reason even in his own head not to come clean, unless he somehow considered his Shen Wei persona not "really him" and a footnote, and something that would never concern Zhao Yunlan again, but I don't think he does. (And your phrasing that Zhao Yunlan would have to "figure it out" also implies to me that this isn't a story about 'Zhao Yunlan and the Black-Cloaked Envoy' and Shen Wei is an abberation that stops appearing after the set-up...)
Well, this is a story about Zhao Yunlan's soulmark having unreadable text, and I need a story with an endpoint. Figuring out the double identity would be a good stopping point, but I want that to happen after some awkwardness about dating, first. And some general difficulty of the Envoy persona being hard to bring on dates in public because too much attention.

I was answering more... structurally, with "would Zhao Yunlan have to figure it out for himself" in mind, and I'd find it very strange if Shen Wei actively kept the secret (as opposed to maybe being clueless and out of his depth in a specific situation, like a first date) for... I don't know what reason he'd do it for, really.
I mean, I wasn't sure if he'd keep the secret for Reasons, either, so idk! This has been clarifying in at least one sense. Argh, couldn't my brain have produced more clear opinions on this AU?

[jo_lasalle]

Oh, if you'd actively LIKE the Envoy not to tell him, then giving him Reasons sounds like the logical next plotting step. *g* I mean, you run this show. :D

[extrapenguin]

NOOO I just want to write something short-ish that showcases Dixingese: the Conlang yet also has at least something of a plot (and preferrably includes Zhao Yunlan and the Envoy's super awkward dates at least somewhat). Giving him Reasons would only make it longer and more involved!

[jo_lasalle]

Giving him Reasons would only make it longer and more involved!

Ah, you are resistant to the root of all writing evil. Go you! (I know where my problems come from.)

[extrapenguin]

There will be no excess plot in my fun worldbuilding times! Only one Dixingian who's bad at being on dates being taken on them by his human soulmate.

(I also need to research what sorts of takeout is popular in China, and types of dates one can do in the comfort of one's apartment, and try to figure out what the Envoy would be like on said dates...)

[trobadora]

I mean, if you don't want plot to intrude, ignore this, but one reason for the secrets has to be that early-days Zhao Yunlan isn't yet the guy he's going to become, and he's just starting to move away from "arrest all Dixingren", right? So surely Shen Wei would want to make sure they're on the same page about that first? I mean, if he's willing to date the Envoy that's a big thing, but not the same as being able to empathise with the random Dixingren on the street ...

[extrapenguin]

The dating thing kicks off after the Butler Wu bit, because only then does Zhao Yunlan have the inclination to summon the Envoy and add a personal question to the end. Some on-the-same-page feelers could still happen, though. I'll also have to mull on how wary/horny/touch-starved Shen Wei would be. So many considerations!

[china_shop]

I also imagine Shen Wei is crap at being on a date

I've been driving around thinking about this, and I'm not sure what you're basing it on. (Tell me? :-)

I mean, Shen Wei is awkward when he's uncomfortable, or when he's having to lie and doesn't want to, and I think he spends a lot of his time as the Envoy in the early episodes trying to calculate how much he can safely say and trying to hide his reactions/assess Zhao Yunlan's attitude to himself and to Dixingren generally, but as Professor Shen we see him pretty at ease around Zhao Yunlan even as early as episode 4, and if they were dating, wouldn't Zhao Yunlan be going out of his way to put him at ease (which he'd be great at)? And Shen Wei would want to be there, so I don't think it would be that difficult? I mean, they talk comfortably in Shen Wei's office all the time...

[jo_lasalle]

Have you read the ficlet that already exists for this story where Shen Wei meets Zhao Yunlan?

[china_shop]

I think I did, but it's since fallen out of my sieve-brain. (Sorry, I didn't realise you were talking in a fic-specific context, rather than generally. *shuts up now*)

[jo_lasalle]

I wasn't entirely. I just wanted to know what context you're moving in because the degree of your disbelief struck me as odd in the context of Extrapenguin's story. :-)

I've been driving around thinking about this, and I'm not sure what you're basing it on.

I'm basing it on:

1. I mean, Shen Wei is awkward when he's uncomfortable Yes, he is. He also gets flustered a couple of times being physically close to Zhao Yunlan in the early episodes. He has several instances in canon where he is not super smooth at the humaning, especially when he's not in control of the situation or, indeed, feeling awkward.

2. or when he's having to lie and doesn't want to And this. At a stage where hidden identities are still going on, he isn't going to be intrinsically comfortable.

What I'm bringing to the table unless contradicted by the 'verse (which might have happened by now, but here's where I generally sit):

3. I think this would be his first date. So he'd be learning on the job in a high pressure scenario. :-) This is different from talking nicely and companionably at the university as part of a case, which has a professional framework, and no outright admission of "yes I'm totally that into you (and also you're the love of my life and aroooooo)".

What the story brings to the table:
4. To me at least it seemed pretty clear that on the scale of "most shy still plausible Shen Wei" and "most smooth still plausible Shen Wei", ExtraPenguin's story holds the ledger distinctly in the direction of the former, seeing how he reacted in his first meeting with Zhao Yunlan, so I wasn't discussing The Truth of 'Shen Wei on a date', but the part of a range I find most applicable to a scenario like this one.

wouldn't Zhao Yunlan be going out of his way to put him at ease (which he'd be great at)?

He might be, and of course that would have an impact on Shen Wei's mood and smoothness. He might also like to flirt, which canonically flusters Shen Wei. Zhao Yunlan's instinctive urge to poke Shen Wei with a stick to see what he does goes away once the secrets are out, but in a dating scenario wehre they're still getting to know each other, I'd see that more in parallel with the getting-to-know-each-other run of the early episodes, and Zhao Yunlan is good to Shen Wei, but he surely doesn't exclusively "put him at ease". :-)

[extrapenguin]

Coming here late without Starbucks (like the Envoy himself!) to co-sign this and also confirm that yes, this is Shen Wei's first date.

To me at least it seemed pretty clear that on the scale of "most shy still plausible Shen Wei" and "most smooth still plausible Shen Wei", ExtraPenguin's story holds the ledger distinctly in the direction of the former, seeing how he reacted in his first meeting with Zhao Yunlan,
Well, I was trying to base it on their meeting in episode one (while not having canon available to review), in which he does get a bit flustered and is not at all smooth. Do I interpret the point of "most smooth still plausible Shen Wei" not as far towards smoothness as other people? He is, after all, plenty awkward and flustered in the early episodes, and while he is elsewhere competent socially, I would not call him smooth (but that's probably just fucking the comma).

[jo_lasalle]

Uh, in trying to answer your question, I was being me and the answer got long and kind of specific. I would take sth that references specifics of a WIP to email now - do you want to shoot me an addy through DM or do you want a hopefully shorter version here?

[extrapenguin]

Given that the specifics in question have already been published on the internet/on this very journal, I'd say that the cat of that matter has left the bag and had some kittens. But if you're more comfortable discussing out of sight, I'm emailable at extrapenguin at gmx dot com! I do enjoy long and in-depth thoughts on words I've written, in any format. :P

[extrapenguin]

jo_lasalle answered more fully downthread, but I think that in any canonverse fic Shen Wei would be pretty awkward on his and Zhao Yunlan's first date, because it's almost certainly Shen Wei's first date ever (at least for the modern concept of dating), and the entire context of a date is figuring out whether there's a spark going on, so Shen Wei doesn't have any external structure or context to hold on to while he explores this terra incognita. In his office etc, he knows Zhao Yunlan is there at least technically for case reasons, so all the smoldering glances are just extra rather than the entire purpose.

[jo_lasalle]

(FWIW, I'm saying things like "I don't see a reason why..." without all the caveats one could possibly make because you put it out there as a discussion question and I'm thinking things through as I type for what I'd find most logical in the abstract. All sorts of scenarios can be made to work in an existing story that has, like, circumstances and tone and whatnot, so don't let me throw you off if you wanted to go elsewhere! Just offering bouncing-off points!)

[extrapenguin]

No problem – I get you! Pretty much anything can be made in character with enough set-up; the difference is zero set-up vs 100k of set-up. This is me trying to figure out what the zero to <1k set-up options would be.