please come tl;dr at me about Shen Wei

[extrapenguin]

I need to figure out stuff about Ye Zun, and [spoilers], but also stuff about Shen Wei! Since having other people say things about the thing is in general a productive way for me to acquire thoughts, I now invite your opinions on Shen Wei and secrecy. He's trying to tell Zhao Yunlan the absolute minimum to protect him and also the timeline, yes, but in a divergent scenario where he was unavoidably associated with Zhao Yunlan, how much would he tell? What do you think is the core of the (over)protectiveness and secrecy? What is the root of his nondisclosure?

Comments

[jo_lasalle]

I think the core of the overprotectiveness is a mix of love for a risk-taking guy, and the personality structure of someone who is a "put it all on my shoulders" type.

The secrecy, I've been thinking about a lot recently, and while on first watch, I thought it was primarily "for your own protection" stuff that is basically a trope for Hidden Identity characters, with a bit more distance and appreciation for the turn in the timeloop episodes, I think it really is to a great extent worry about the timeline, with some additional "this might make you a target" superhero stuff.

That's my general outline. To gauge more specifically, I'd probably need to know more specifics. *g*

[extrapenguin]

I think the core of the overprotectiveness is a mix of love for a risk-taking guy, and the personality structure of someone who is a "put it all on my shoulders" type.
Mm, yeah, this is where I stand as well.

That's my general outline. To gauge more specifically, I'd probably need to know more specifics. *g*
While there is some general interest, the specifics are mostly for the soulmate AU thingy now. If Shen Wei knew that Zhao Yunlan knew that the Envoy and Zhao Yunlan are soulmates, would Shen Wei try to hide his professorial alter ego (even if they'd already met in those clothes as well) to the limits of plausibility, or would he turn up for date night #1 in Envoy garb and say "btw, I daylight as a professor of bioengineering, also I brought your favorite homecooked foods" or something between those approaches?

[jo_lasalle]

Wait, so Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate; he doesn't know the Envoy is Shen Wei; Zhao Yunlan is the Chief of the SID/liasing with the Envoy; and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan go on a date?

If Zhao Yunlan didn't know the Envoy was his soulmate, I could see Shen Wei just generally being shy about volunteering this info that he's got this mysterious and important side gig, even if there were no timeline concerns. That is a pretty big deal, and just on the human level, 'how is my super duper crush and potential soulmate going to react???' is a natural response, and I think there'd be some leeway how that could go.

If Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate, and Shen Wei somehow goes on a date with him as Shen Wei... honestly, as much as I'd like complications and shenanigans, I don't see that he wouldn't 'fess up, awkward as the talk would be; he'd have no reason (not even an emo reason) to keep that information from Zhao Yunlan.

(The only reason I can come up with off the top of my head for someone in that position not to come clean would be if they're kind of anti-"soulmates-as-a-concept", and have an investment in trying to find out "does he really like me, or is he just going with Fate". But Shen Wei's not a guy who'd be against Fate, IMO, so in his case, I don't see that that would apply.)

[extrapenguin]

Wait, so Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate; he doesn't know the Envoy is Shen Wei; Zhao Yunlan is the Chief of the SID/liasing with the Envoy; and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan go on a date?
Sorry, I should've phrased that clearer – Zhao Yunlan invites the Envoy on a date. (In his apartment, which he has to clean, hence yesterday's snippet.) Zhao Yunlan met Shen Wei, canon proceeded as normal except that Shen Wei thought he was unrequieted soulmates with Kunlun and was miserable about that until Zhao Yunlan summoned the Envoy and did some linguistics/anthropology to determine that hey, they're soulmates! And invited him for dinner. So Zhao Yunlan and the Envoy are soulmates, and the Envoy knows that Zhao Yunlan has met his civilian disguise. Would the Envoy then tell Zhao Yunlan that actually, Shen Wei is also him, or would Zhao Yunlan have to figure that out himself?

[jo_lasalle]

Ah!

Okay, let me ask the return question: what reason would/could the Envoy have not to tell Zhao Yunlan he is also Shen Wei?

[020104isme]

What do you think is the core of the (over)protectiveness and secrecy? What is the root of his nondisclosure?

A differing point of view is that the root of his nondisclosure is fear. Fear that saying too much - or at the wrong time - will somehow result in action(s) that will take the person he most desires to protect away from him. He walks a tightrope as a result where he wants to say more but won't.

[extrapenguin]

Hm, interesting! Though in this scenario, the one he loves is bound to him and they both know it and have no problem with it, so little to no risk of chasing Yunlan off.

[naye]

This is pretty much exactly where I land too - I was going to write a similar comment when I saw this had already been presented!

If Yunlan is already tied to him there's still the risk that Shen Wei disclosing something will spur Zhao Yunlan to take an action that directly or indirectly shifts the timeline or causes Zhao Yunlan harm? (Look, Shen Wei is very good at worrying and Zhao Yunlan is very good at getting himself into trouble.)

[020104isme]

Shen Wei could get awards for his worrying.

It doesn't help that Zhao Yunlan is so adept at trouble finding.

[extrapenguin]

This is early episodes yet - a bit after the Butler Wu case - so Shen Wei doesn't yet know quite how good Zhao Yunlan is at getting himself into trouble. Zhao Yunlan is also very good at cuddling, which Shen Wei appreciates and is conflicted by. Should he not tell anything and leave when he's too tired to Envoy it up, or should he confess everything and cuddle in those arms when he's had no choice but to morph back into Professor Shen?! (I have figured out the reveal. It will hopefully be endearing.)

[phyrry]

For understanding the secrecy and the stonewalling, I go back to the image of bby!SW and YZ struggling along. Shen Wei is the older twin and he's responsible for his sickly little brother, right? They don't have parents, they don't have anyone to care for them, and so he's taken on the role of the caregiver (parentification) when he hasn't even hit puberty yet.

And he never lets that go.

Ye Zun gets taken away, Shen Wei ends up parenting Dixing: first in Ma Gui's alliance, later in the Regent's hellish prison of torment. When he meets Zhao Yunlan, Shen Wei doesn't know how to share responsibility. He's always been responsible for caring for everyone else, and he has no idea how to let anyone else care for him. Because no one has, for a very long time.

That scene in episode 27, where Zhao Yunlan sees Shen Wei having lunch with his dad and asks "WTF dude??", fits right in. Shen Wei has no reason to lie here, but he does anyway. Why? Because he is used to taking responsibility for managing other peoples' lives, and he is not used to other people giving a damn about him. It doesn't even cross his mind that Zhao Yunlan wants to share that load.

So of course he keeps secrets. Someone has to keep track of everything, and that person is him, and no one will ever, ever help him.

(Zhao Yunlan really has his work cut out for him with this guy.)

[Mandatory disclaimer: This could be just me projecting my own issues on Shen Wei, who knows. But I think it fits.]

[mecurtin]

I co-sign all your good thinky thoughts. Good point about the Lunch with Dad scene, where SW has indeed *no reason to lie* about what we see (it's possible he also had a talk with Zhang Shi that he might want to conceal).

[extrapenguin]

Thank you for the meaty comment! Yes, I do think it all fits. (Poor thing.) Here, Shen Wei has been invited as a guest to Zhao Yunlan's recently cleaned home, and is still a bit at sea re: this whole soulmate thing, so maybe Zhao Yunlan can get him to relax a bit. Maybe.

Because he is used to taking responsibility for managing other peoples' lives, and he is not used to other people giving a damn about him. It doesn't even cross his mind that Zhao Yunlan wants to share that load.
I suspect that this'll become a series, so there'll be more chances to show him that yes, Zhao Yunlan wants to share, and he's not alone. The soulmate thing and popular conceptions of it would also help. Do you think he'd become more like bb Shen Wei (open, trusting, etc) if he realized he didn't have to go it alone?

[phyrry]

I do! I had a whole 'nother comment I deleted because I realized I'm not sure how much I believe it -- but fwiw, focused on the Fridge Incident in ep08 as a pivot from 'this man can be trusted' to 'you are an actual child aren't you'. (Available upon request since I save everything like an anxious magpie.)

But basically: yes. If Shen Wei can figure out that, (1), Zhao Yunlan is dependable, and (2), SW feels safe enough with ZYL to learn how to trust him, then he's quite capable of opening up and learning adult relational skills. (And then he has to overwrite his existing habit of 'doing everything on his own and lying about it' with honesty and openness and teamwork, which mostly involves fucking up practice.)

People go through this all the time in their first few (or many) relationships, with variable success. But I think what Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan have going for them that a lot of folks don't is their rock-solid mutual respect and admiration, and that goes a long way. The death knell for a partnership is contempt.

[extrapenguin]

No problem - I have e-mail notifs on so I did get to read it! FWIW, re-thinking the early interactions, I think I agree that the Fridge Incident was a turning point. Thus, my AU will have no fridge incidents, only Zhao Yunlan furiously cleaning his apartment so the Envoy doesn't think he's a slob and run away, soulmateness be damned.

If Shen Wei can figure out that, (1), Zhao Yunlan is dependable, and (2), SW feels safe enough with ZYL to learn how to trust him,
We agree so much on Shen Wei that talking to you is like talking to a version of me who has their shit better together! *g* Now I just need to figure out ways for Shen Wei to figure out that Yunlan is dependable... (In the other WIP, Shen Wei is gradually pushed towards a huge crisis where he just doesn't have the brain to deal with everything anymore and, noticing that Yunlan picked up the slack, tries this "trust" thing to positive effect. Here, I want something less traumatic for poor Shen Wei, who's suffered enough already.)

[phyrry]

I think it would be hilarious and adorable if ZYL having a clean apartment was the extra nudge that helped SW settle down inside and say, "Huh, maybe this will work."

Glad my rambling was helpful to you!

♥️♥️♥️

[forestofglory]

So there's pretty big contrast between bb!Shen Wei and older Shen Wei in terms of how open they are. Bb!Shen Wei says no one has ever tried to get to know him before Kunlun but when asked questions he does answer them. But by the current time he's gotten much more closed off. So something happened between times. The something might just be that he's been passing as human for such a long time and thus has very hard time opening up. Plus as others mentioned he takes lot of responsibility on to himself. Or it could be something a little bit more dramatic -- he has been working with humans who are very hostile to Dixingren. So there could have been an incident -- or you know just that constant hostility could have had a long term effect.

[extrapenguin]

Indeed, he isn't bb Weiwei anymore! I think that in the interests of not having this erupt into a monster, I'll keep it at just the secrecy taking its toll. Do you think that he'd become more like bb Shen Wei again if Zhao Yunlan invited him over, fed him with takeout, and asked him questions about himself, then gradually that blossomed into love?

[forestofglory]

I hope he would. Maybe if ZYL stuck another lollipop in his mouth:) Also a situation where SW gets to do some of the caretaking might help him open up more.

In cannon SW lets his guard down a around ZLY a lot but he's still very secretive. Hopefully with the whole soulmates thing he's a bit less worried about the timeline.

[extrapenguin]

Hmm, I actually discussed wit phyrry elsethread that the best thing for Shen Wei might actually be not having to do any caretaking, because then he can at least momentarily give up the "taking care of everyone and not telling anyone anything" schtick and return to his bb Shen Wei mindset. Also, he's still worried about the timeline, but the personal questions Zhao Yunlan is now asking are timeline-unrelated.

[forestofglory]

Ok, yeah I can see that. I guess I was thinking that seeing some vulnerability from ZYL might help SW be more trusting -- but there's lots of ways that could go that don't involve caretaking.

Also I'm someone who find it easier to socialize if I have something to do with my hands so I like cooking for people. But I do see the point about Shen Wei taking that as being in charge and closing off.

Is the fic going to include the YOHE meeting? Because I'm curious how that went in this scenario

[phyrry]

I think that could do a very good job of breaking down some of his walls. ZYL demonstrating care and concern and interest would be extremely novel, and he wouldn't have much in the way of defenses for that approach. (Beyond hiding behind a teacup of course, that one's a 'flustered SW' classic.)

[extrapenguin]

Zhao Yunlan can give Shen Wei some tea in a teacup to hide behind! :P It'd also bring to mind baby Shen Wei being all excited and a bit flustered at Kunlun asking all those questions of him as the first person ever to be interested in him as a person.

[china_shop]

Yay, dating fic! *\o/*

I think in general, he'll disclose as much as he can to ZYL. In your soulmates scenario, if he and ZYL don't know each other well yet, and if Shen Wei doesn't trust ZYL to keep his secret from others (possibly thinking that even if ZYL is now cool with Dixingren qua Dixingren, he might be judgy about Dixingren passing as humans?), he might withhold it in the interests of preserving the Envoy's reputation and/or his position at the university. But if he trusts ZYL, then I think he'd tell.

Like, I think his motives in lying/hiding the truth are a) to protect the timeline (including details of the time loop), b) to protect Zhao Yunlan, and c) to protect his position as Envoy (with maybe a side order of protecting his position as Professor Shen). (And d) to give us identity shenanigans to play with. ;-)

[extrapenguin]

Due to Reasons, I'm pretty sure Shen Wei has more experience with dating than I do, but I can write about Zhao Yunlan inviting the Envoy over for tea/dinner/time-spending!

I think in general, he'll disclose as much as he can to ZYL.
Well, sure, but what does he think he can disclose to Zhao Yunlan? I'm pretty sure he'd say he's disclosing as much as he can in canon, but that's damned little, and he could've (should've) disclosed more.