please come tl;dr at me about Shen Wei

[extrapenguin]

I need to figure out stuff about Ye Zun, and [spoilers], but also stuff about Shen Wei! Since having other people say things about the thing is in general a productive way for me to acquire thoughts, I now invite your opinions on Shen Wei and secrecy. He's trying to tell Zhao Yunlan the absolute minimum to protect him and also the timeline, yes, but in a divergent scenario where he was unavoidably associated with Zhao Yunlan, how much would he tell? What do you think is the core of the (over)protectiveness and secrecy? What is the root of his nondisclosure?

Comments

[jo_lasalle]

I think the core of the overprotectiveness is a mix of love for a risk-taking guy, and the personality structure of someone who is a "put it all on my shoulders" type.

The secrecy, I've been thinking about a lot recently, and while on first watch, I thought it was primarily "for your own protection" stuff that is basically a trope for Hidden Identity characters, with a bit more distance and appreciation for the turn in the timeloop episodes, I think it really is to a great extent worry about the timeline, with some additional "this might make you a target" superhero stuff.

That's my general outline. To gauge more specifically, I'd probably need to know more specifics. *g*

[extrapenguin]

I think the core of the overprotectiveness is a mix of love for a risk-taking guy, and the personality structure of someone who is a "put it all on my shoulders" type.
Mm, yeah, this is where I stand as well.

That's my general outline. To gauge more specifically, I'd probably need to know more specifics. *g*
While there is some general interest, the specifics are mostly for the soulmate AU thingy now. If Shen Wei knew that Zhao Yunlan knew that the Envoy and Zhao Yunlan are soulmates, would Shen Wei try to hide his professorial alter ego (even if they'd already met in those clothes as well) to the limits of plausibility, or would he turn up for date night #1 in Envoy garb and say "btw, I daylight as a professor of bioengineering, also I brought your favorite homecooked foods" or something between those approaches?

[jo_lasalle]

Wait, so Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate; he doesn't know the Envoy is Shen Wei; Zhao Yunlan is the Chief of the SID/liasing with the Envoy; and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan go on a date?

If Zhao Yunlan didn't know the Envoy was his soulmate, I could see Shen Wei just generally being shy about volunteering this info that he's got this mysterious and important side gig, even if there were no timeline concerns. That is a pretty big deal, and just on the human level, 'how is my super duper crush and potential soulmate going to react???' is a natural response, and I think there'd be some leeway how that could go.

If Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate, and Shen Wei somehow goes on a date with him as Shen Wei... honestly, as much as I'd like complications and shenanigans, I don't see that he wouldn't 'fess up, awkward as the talk would be; he'd have no reason (not even an emo reason) to keep that information from Zhao Yunlan.

(The only reason I can come up with off the top of my head for someone in that position not to come clean would be if they're kind of anti-"soulmates-as-a-concept", and have an investment in trying to find out "does he really like me, or is he just going with Fate". But Shen Wei's not a guy who'd be against Fate, IMO, so in his case, I don't see that that would apply.)

[extrapenguin]

Wait, so Zhao Yunlan knows the Envoy is his soulmate; he doesn't know the Envoy is Shen Wei; Zhao Yunlan is the Chief of the SID/liasing with the Envoy; and Shen Wei and Zhao Yunlan go on a date?
Sorry, I should've phrased that clearer – Zhao Yunlan invites the Envoy on a date. (In his apartment, which he has to clean, hence yesterday's snippet.) Zhao Yunlan met Shen Wei, canon proceeded as normal except that Shen Wei thought he was unrequieted soulmates with Kunlun and was miserable about that until Zhao Yunlan summoned the Envoy and did some linguistics/anthropology to determine that hey, they're soulmates! And invited him for dinner. So Zhao Yunlan and the Envoy are soulmates, and the Envoy knows that Zhao Yunlan has met his civilian disguise. Would the Envoy then tell Zhao Yunlan that actually, Shen Wei is also him, or would Zhao Yunlan have to figure that out himself?

[jo_lasalle]

Ah!

Okay, let me ask the return question: what reason would/could the Envoy have not to tell Zhao Yunlan he is also Shen Wei?

[extrapenguin]

He is sort of terrible at telling things in general/used to carrying all his knowledge himself, and so baffled at the situation it might just slip his mind until it's too awkward to tell? Straight-up telling would also be a significant departure from his canon characterization, which is why I would need to justify it to myself strongly. Zhao Yunlan would figure it out sooner than in canon, though.

[jo_lasalle]

He is sort of terrible at telling things in general/used to carrying all his knowledge himself

That's true, but there's usually some reason, even if it's a stupid reason he mostly tells himself.

I personally don't see that he'd have a reason even in his own head not to come clean, unless he somehow considered his Shen Wei persona not "really him" and a footnote, and something that would never concern Zhao Yunlan again, but I don't think he does. (And your phrasing that Zhao Yunlan would have to "figure it out" also implies to me that this isn't a story about 'Zhao Yunlan and the Black-Cloaked Envoy' and Shen Wei is an abberation that stops appearing after the set-up...)

would also be a significant departure from his canon characterization, which is why I would need to justify it to myself strongly.

I do get that and that's a good point! I also imagine Shen Wei is crap at being on a date, so in that sense, for the actual date, I think you have a lot of leeway how it might go.

I was answering more... structurally, with "would Zhao Yunlan have to figure it out for himself" in mind, and I'd find it very strange if Shen Wei actively kept the secret (as opposed to maybe being clueless and out of his depth in a specific situation, like a first date) for... I don't know what reason he'd do it for, really.

But yes, I just realised the difference between 'failing to say because loads of other things are going on and being out of his depth' and 'keeping a secret, deliberate omission, in a narrative where there is something-to-figure-out'.

Is my reaction as I'm thinking this through on the fly, anyway!

[extrapenguin]

I personally don't see that he'd have a reason even in his own head not to come clean, unless he somehow considered his Shen Wei persona not "really him" and a footnote, and something that would never concern Zhao Yunlan again, but I don't think he does. (And your phrasing that Zhao Yunlan would have to "figure it out" also implies to me that this isn't a story about 'Zhao Yunlan and the Black-Cloaked Envoy' and Shen Wei is an abberation that stops appearing after the set-up...)
Well, this is a story about Zhao Yunlan's soulmark having unreadable text, and I need a story with an endpoint. Figuring out the double identity would be a good stopping point, but I want that to happen after some awkwardness about dating, first. And some general difficulty of the Envoy persona being hard to bring on dates in public because too much attention.

I was answering more... structurally, with "would Zhao Yunlan have to figure it out for himself" in mind, and I'd find it very strange if Shen Wei actively kept the secret (as opposed to maybe being clueless and out of his depth in a specific situation, like a first date) for... I don't know what reason he'd do it for, really.
I mean, I wasn't sure if he'd keep the secret for Reasons, either, so idk! This has been clarifying in at least one sense. Argh, couldn't my brain have produced more clear opinions on this AU?

[jo_lasalle]

(FWIW, I'm saying things like "I don't see a reason why..." without all the caveats one could possibly make because you put it out there as a discussion question and I'm thinking things through as I type for what I'd find most logical in the abstract. All sorts of scenarios can be made to work in an existing story that has, like, circumstances and tone and whatnot, so don't let me throw you off if you wanted to go elsewhere! Just offering bouncing-off points!)

[jo_lasalle]

Oh, if you'd actively LIKE the Envoy not to tell him, then giving him Reasons sounds like the logical next plotting step. *g* I mean, you run this show. :D

[extrapenguin]

NOOO I just want to write something short-ish that showcases Dixingese: the Conlang yet also has at least something of a plot (and preferrably includes Zhao Yunlan and the Envoy's super awkward dates at least somewhat). Giving him Reasons would only make it longer and more involved!

[jo_lasalle]

Giving him Reasons would only make it longer and more involved!

Ah, you are resistant to the root of all writing evil. Go you! (I know where my problems come from.)

[extrapenguin]

No problem – I get you! Pretty much anything can be made in character with enough set-up; the difference is zero set-up vs 100k of set-up. This is me trying to figure out what the zero to <1k set-up options would be.

[extrapenguin]

There will be no excess plot in my fun worldbuilding times! Only one Dixingian who's bad at being on dates being taken on them by his human soulmate.

(I also need to research what sorts of takeout is popular in China, and types of dates one can do in the comfort of one's apartment, and try to figure out what the Envoy would be like on said dates...)

[trobadora]

I mean, if you don't want plot to intrude, ignore this, but one reason for the secrets has to be that early-days Zhao Yunlan isn't yet the guy he's going to become, and he's just starting to move away from "arrest all Dixingren", right? So surely Shen Wei would want to make sure they're on the same page about that first? I mean, if he's willing to date the Envoy that's a big thing, but not the same as being able to empathise with the random Dixingren on the street ...

[020104isme]

What do you think is the core of the (over)protectiveness and secrecy? What is the root of his nondisclosure?

A differing point of view is that the root of his nondisclosure is fear. Fear that saying too much - or at the wrong time - will somehow result in action(s) that will take the person he most desires to protect away from him. He walks a tightrope as a result where he wants to say more but won't.

[phyrry]

For understanding the secrecy and the stonewalling, I go back to the image of bby!SW and YZ struggling along. Shen Wei is the older twin and he's responsible for his sickly little brother, right? They don't have parents, they don't have anyone to care for them, and so he's taken on the role of the caregiver (parentification) when he hasn't even hit puberty yet.

And he never lets that go.

Ye Zun gets taken away, Shen Wei ends up parenting Dixing: first in Ma Gui's alliance, later in the Regent's hellish prison of torment. When he meets Zhao Yunlan, Shen Wei doesn't know how to share responsibility. He's always been responsible for caring for everyone else, and he has no idea how to let anyone else care for him. Because no one has, for a very long time.

That scene in episode 27, where Zhao Yunlan sees Shen Wei having lunch with his dad and asks "WTF dude??", fits right in. Shen Wei has no reason to lie here, but he does anyway. Why? Because he is used to taking responsibility for managing other peoples' lives, and he is not used to other people giving a damn about him. It doesn't even cross his mind that Zhao Yunlan wants to share that load.

So of course he keeps secrets. Someone has to keep track of everything, and that person is him, and no one will ever, ever help him.

(Zhao Yunlan really has his work cut out for him with this guy.)

[Mandatory disclaimer: This could be just me projecting my own issues on Shen Wei, who knows. But I think it fits.]

[extrapenguin]

The dating thing kicks off after the Butler Wu bit, because only then does Zhao Yunlan have the inclination to summon the Envoy and add a personal question to the end. Some on-the-same-page feelers could still happen, though. I'll also have to mull on how wary/horny/touch-starved Shen Wei would be. So many considerations!

[forestofglory]

So there's pretty big contrast between bb!Shen Wei and older Shen Wei in terms of how open they are. Bb!Shen Wei says no one has ever tried to get to know him before Kunlun but when asked questions he does answer them. But by the current time he's gotten much more closed off. So something happened between times. The something might just be that he's been passing as human for such a long time and thus has very hard time opening up. Plus as others mentioned he takes lot of responsibility on to himself. Or it could be something a little bit more dramatic -- he has been working with humans who are very hostile to Dixingren. So there could have been an incident -- or you know just that constant hostility could have had a long term effect.

[mecurtin]

I co-sign all your good thinky thoughts. Good point about the Lunch with Dad scene, where SW has indeed *no reason to lie* about what we see (it's possible he also had a talk with Zhang Shi that he might want to conceal).

[china_shop]

Yay, dating fic! *\o/*

I think in general, he'll disclose as much as he can to ZYL. In your soulmates scenario, if he and ZYL don't know each other well yet, and if Shen Wei doesn't trust ZYL to keep his secret from others (possibly thinking that even if ZYL is now cool with Dixingren qua Dixingren, he might be judgy about Dixingren passing as humans?), he might withhold it in the interests of preserving the Envoy's reputation and/or his position at the university. But if he trusts ZYL, then I think he'd tell.

Like, I think his motives in lying/hiding the truth are a) to protect the timeline (including details of the time loop), b) to protect Zhao Yunlan, and c) to protect his position as Envoy (with maybe a side order of protecting his position as Professor Shen). (And d) to give us identity shenanigans to play with. ;-)

[china_shop]

I also imagine Shen Wei is crap at being on a date

I've been driving around thinking about this, and I'm not sure what you're basing it on. (Tell me? :-)

I mean, Shen Wei is awkward when he's uncomfortable, or when he's having to lie and doesn't want to, and I think he spends a lot of his time as the Envoy in the early episodes trying to calculate how much he can safely say and trying to hide his reactions/assess Zhao Yunlan's attitude to himself and to Dixingren generally, but as Professor Shen we see him pretty at ease around Zhao Yunlan even as early as episode 4, and if they were dating, wouldn't Zhao Yunlan be going out of his way to put him at ease (which he'd be great at)? And Shen Wei would want to be there, so I don't think it would be that difficult? I mean, they talk comfortably in Shen Wei's office all the time...

[jo_lasalle]

Have you read the ficlet that already exists for this story where Shen Wei meets Zhao Yunlan?

[extrapenguin]

Thank you for the meaty comment! Yes, I do think it all fits. (Poor thing.) Here, Shen Wei has been invited as a guest to Zhao Yunlan's recently cleaned home, and is still a bit at sea re: this whole soulmate thing, so maybe Zhao Yunlan can get him to relax a bit. Maybe.

Because he is used to taking responsibility for managing other peoples' lives, and he is not used to other people giving a damn about him. It doesn't even cross his mind that Zhao Yunlan wants to share that load.
I suspect that this'll become a series, so there'll be more chances to show him that yes, Zhao Yunlan wants to share, and he's not alone. The soulmate thing and popular conceptions of it would also help. Do you think he'd become more like bb Shen Wei (open, trusting, etc) if he realized he didn't have to go it alone?

[extrapenguin]

Hm, interesting! Though in this scenario, the one he loves is bound to him and they both know it and have no problem with it, so little to no risk of chasing Yunlan off.